Calvin Cooke Interviews
Calvin Cooke lived most of his life in Detroit and is now retired to the greater Atlanta area. As his family first belonged to the Church of the Living God and later joined the House of God, he immersed himself in the steel guitar musical traditions of both denominations. Felton Williams served as a steel guitar mentor to Calvin Cooke, Sonny Treadway and Ron Hall when they were teens. For years, Ron Hall backed up Calvin’s innovative steel guitar playing for worship services, and the two developed a special musical synergy. Calvin is also a talented singer and songwriter, and his wife, Grace Cooke, frequently sings with him. Since retiring from his job at a Chrysler auto assembly plant, he has toured extensively with his Sacred Steel Ensemble, played as an opening act for Robert Randolph, and most recently, performed with Chuck Campbell as the Slide Brothers.
– Robert L. Stone
- RS-025-027 Calvin Cooke Interview 6/12/02 00:00
- RS-028 Calvin Cooke Interview 8/4/03 00:00
- RS-029 Calvin Cooke Interview 8/4/03 00:00
- RS-030 Calvin Cooke Interview 8/4/03 00:00
- RS-032 Calvin Cooke Interview 2/22/06 00:00
- RS-033 Calvin Cooke Interview 2/22/06 00:00
- RS-034 Calvin Cooke Interview 8/7/03 00:00
- RS-035 Calvin Cooke Interview 9/5/07 00:00
Interviewee: Calvin Cooke
Interviewer: Robert Stone
Date: 6/12/2002, 8/4/2003, 2/22/2006, 8/7/2003, 9/5/2007
Location: Telephone interview
Language: English
For the archive overview:
The Robert Stone Sacred Steel Archive
This is an interview originally recorded for research purposes. It is presented here in its raw state, unedited except to remove some irrelevant sections and blank spaces. All rights to the interview are reserved by the Arhoolie Foundation. Please do not use anything from this website without permission. info@arhoolie.org
Calvin Cooke Interview Transcripts:
Robert Stone:
All right, it’s June 12th 2002. This is Bob Stone interviewing Calvin Cooke. Probably some of this interview, if not all of it, or parts of it will be used for the Sacred Steel book. I will probably do some direct quoting. You agree to that?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Okay, good. Well, of course, some of this information I had before, but it might be good to get it on one spot, one tape here. So let’s just start right in with your date and place of birth.
Calvin Cooke:
Cleveland, Ohio. January 11th 1944.
Robert Stone:
01/11/44, so you’re already 58.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
But not 62.
Calvin Cooke:
Not yet.
Robert Stone:
That’s funny.
Calvin Cooke:
I got a little while yet.
Robert Stone:
Now, tell me about your family history in the church.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, actually all of them have been in the church all their lives, from my grandmother on.
Robert Stone:
Your grandmother on which side?
Calvin Cooke:
On my mother’s side, all this is on my mother’s side.
Robert Stone:
So your mother’s side was in the church.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Now, is that in the Jewell Dominion?
Calvin Cooke:
Jewell Dominion.
Robert Stone:
Jewell Dominion. What was your mother and father’s name?
Calvin Cooke:
Elizabeth Flenory, no, Elizabeth Cooke, I’m sorry.
Robert Stone:
And your father?
Calvin Cooke:
Jack William Cooke.
Robert Stone:
When did your father pass away?
Calvin Cooke:
I was 12 years old.
Robert Stone:
That’s good enough. How about your mom?
Calvin Cooke:
11 years ago.
Robert Stone:
So your mother’s side was in the church.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Were they ministers or bishops or anything like that?
Calvin Cooke:
All my uncles were ministers.
Robert Stone:
So your mother’s brothers?
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
What was her maiden name?
Calvin Cooke:
Flenory.
Robert Stone:
Okay, so that’s the Flenory connection.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Now what relation are you to Charles?
Calvin Cooke:
We first cousins.
Robert Stone:
First cousins, so he’s one of your uncle’s sons. How many brothers did your mom have? Do you remember?
Calvin Cooke:
Two brothers. George Flenory and David Flenory.
Robert Stone:
When did you first encounter the Steel, how did that go?
Calvin Cooke:
Actually we’ve always been exposed to it in the Jewell Dominion, from Lorenzo Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Do you remember the first person you ever heard? Was it Harrison himself or somebody else?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, because we lived in Cleveland at the time. The family lived in Cleveland and Jewell’s headquarters at that time was in Cleveland, when I was a small boy. That’s the Church we attended every week. Lorenzo Harrison, Harvey Jones and…
Robert Stone:
Harvey Jones was a steel player also?
Calvin Cooke:
No, Harvey Jones was the lead guitar player. And Burns, Corroneva Burns.
Robert Stone:
Harvey Jones, guitar and Corroneva?
Calvin Cooke:
Corroneva Burns.
Robert Stone:
Any idea how he spells that?
Calvin Cooke:
No I don’t.
Robert Stone:
And he’s related to Laban Burns. He was the drummer. So is that Laban Burns’ father do you know?
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know if that is or not, no, I don’t know.
Robert Stone:
I can find that out. Then those were the guys who played there regularly.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, they were the ones who played regular, back in those times, back in the 50s that I can remember, in Cleveland. Because the headquarters was there, so he was there a lot. Unless he was on the road. Whoever else played when they wasn’t there, I couldn’t remember them.
Robert Stone:
That’s what I was going to say, who do you… was there somebody that inspired you, that you really said when you heard the steel you said that’s it, or how did that go?
Calvin Cooke:
Actually I just liked being around it. I had some cousins who were members of that Church too. They’re both dead now. Bobby and, well we called him Tubby, but his name was James, his nickname was Tubby. Tubby played the Steel.
Robert Stone:
Were they Flenorys?
Calvin Cooke:
No, no they were distant, Golden, they were married into our family. They married my other cousins.
Robert Stone:
James, Tubby played the steel.
Calvin Cooke:
Tubby played the steel and Bobby played the lead.
Robert Stone:
Did you actually play with them or get something from them? When did you start playing?
Calvin Cooke:
I started playing when we come out, I think Ted was telling me, we all came out in 55.
Robert Stone:
What do you mean came out?
Calvin Cooke:
Came out of the Jewell Dominion.
Robert Stone:
Left the Jewell Dominion?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. We all left the Jewell Dominion. I believe I might have been about 11 years old then. From there, that I can remember, May Hodge had started up a church under Lorenzo Harrison’s brother.
Robert Stone:
May Hart
Calvin Cooke:
Hodge, H-O-D-G-E. My mother, uncles and our uncles and some other members from the Jewell Dominion, went with her. Who was the bishop then was Lorenzo’s brother on the Keith Dominion side, Henry Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Henry, right and May Hodge was under him?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. And what happened when they first started that church up, they had no music or anything. May Hodge bought me a regular lead guitar, I couldn’t play it because my hands were too small. But being around a steel, I was familiar with how they played that, and so I just tuned it up in what they call vestipol style, and got a knife and started playing it with the back of a knife.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. And after that, then my mother bought me a Rickenbacker Steel, from the pawn shop and I started playing the Steel from there. Little by little. From time to time.
Robert Stone:
You remember anything about that Rickenbacker? I’m curious.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. It had chrome on it, on all three sides of it.
Robert Stone:
Right, it was just solid chrome.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes solid chrome and black.
Robert Stone:
And what?
Calvin Cooke:
It was jet black with the chrome on top of it.
Robert Stone:
Oh, like mine, have you seen mine?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, you showed me yours and mine was just like that.
Robert Stone:
It was a Bakelite, the heavy Bakelite with the chrome.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Oh wow, too bad you don’t still have that.
Calvin Cooke:
No, my brother tore it up. Tore the insides out. That’s how that started. Ronnie Hall and Treadway, they would come to Cleveland a lot. Because they had left the Jewell Dominion also and got in the Keith Dominion.
Robert Stone:
Treadway had?
Calvin Cooke:
Treadway still was with Jewell. But him and Ronnie Hall was good friends, and so he would still come to Detroit with Ronnie when we would have a convention. And those two would trade off and play, because each one of them could play the lead and the steel. And they spent a lot of time with me, playing and practicing and showing me different stuff.
Robert Stone:
Really. So they both played lead and steel.
Calvin Cooke:
And steel. They both switched off a lot.
Robert Stone:
Is Ronnie Hall dead?
Calvin Cooke:
No, he’s living.
Robert Stone:
Where’s he?
Calvin Cooke:
He’s got his own church now, he’s a bishop.
Robert Stone:
Where?
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know the name of his church.
Robert Stone:
You don’t know where he lives or anything?
Calvin Cooke:
In lives in Ecorse, Michigan.
Robert Stone:
In where?
Calvin Cooke:
Ecorse, Michigan.
Robert Stone:
Ecorse?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. He’s still, might as well say right here in Detroit, he’s still here.
Robert Stone:
Would he be like Treadway’s age?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, all of us round about the same age.
Robert Stone:
Treadway’s a little older than us, isn’t he? I think he is. I think he’s a little…
Calvin Cooke:
He might be about 60 now.
Robert Stone:
Yes, I got his birthdate. I believe he… when I first met him I wasn’t 50 yet and I think he already was. Something like that.
Calvin Cooke:
He’s much older then.
Robert Stone:
He’s probably about five years older than us, something like that.
Calvin Cooke:
Well Ronnie’s about, if I’m 58, Ronnie might be about 59. Because all of was kind of close together.
Robert Stone:
But those guys showed you a lot and spent some time with you.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, I spent a lot of time with them.
Robert Stone:
And then what happened, did you start playing more in church?
Calvin Cooke:
Oh yeah, I started playing more, and then in 1956, 57 I believe it was, 1957, in the winter of 1957 Bishop Harrison took us to Columbus. Me and a cousin played together, Maynard Sopher.
Robert Stone:
Maynard Sopher.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative) S-O-P-H-E-R. Maynard Sopher, him and I played in Cleveland together. He played lead and then Bishop Harrison’s son, he has a son named Starlin.
Robert Stone:
Right I’ve talked to him.
Calvin Cooke:
Starlin, Maynard and I played as a team.
Robert Stone:
What’s Starlin play?
Calvin Cooke:
Starlin played lead and steel. Back then I could play lead back then.
Robert Stone:
You could?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I had learned how to play lead. And what happened. I believe it was 57, the winter of 57, when we come out of school for Christmas break, we went to, first stop we went to, where was I, I know this place, in Kentucky. Oh where was I, know the name of the place. It was a small place we went to in Kentucky, I can’t think of the name of it now. But we stopped in Kentucky first and played there, then we left there. This was in November, no I’m sorry, December. Went to Knoxville where Bishop Harrison lived, stayed a few days, left Knoxville and went to Columbus, Georgia, because back then the Bishops would hold a Christmas assembly. Bishop Keith would.
Calvin Cooke:
Hazard, Kentucky that’s where it was.
Robert Stone:
Hazard, Kentucky sure.
Calvin Cooke:
Hazard, Kentucky.
Robert Stone:
Sure, coal country.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, that’s where we went, Hazard, Kentucky. I’ll never forget it.
Robert Stone:
That’s where, I think, Merle Travis hung out there.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, we went to Hazard, Kentucky course it was a very small place. Back then black and white was mixed together.
Robert Stone:
In the church.
Calvin Cooke:
No, because they had a lot of mixed families back up in those hills.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, you know…
Calvin Cooke:
Because we stayed and met a lot of them, and we became personal friends. Every time we went back there, that’s where we hung out with them.
Robert Stone:
Did you learn any music from them guys, or did they learn anything from you.
Calvin Cooke:
No they didn’t play, the people that we were with, most of them, they all were elderly people most of them. And they all came to church when we were there. I don’t know what happened when we wasn’t there, but when they find out we were coming to town, mostly all the people would come down and hear us play.
Robert Stone:
That’s interesting. I don’t know if you’re aware, but do you know who Merle Travis was?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Supposedly he learned from this Black guy named Arnold Shultz who played the guitar that way, you know, with the thumb picking rhythm. And he also played the fiddle some too, I think. But he got a lot of guys started. Arnold Shultz his name was, funny name for a Black guy.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s true, that’s true.
Robert Stone:
But you know, back in there things was different.
Calvin Cooke:
I know a lot of families was mixed back in there. They lived way, they had houses that was built on those mountains. You ever been to Hazard?
Robert Stone:
No I haven’t.
Calvin Cooke:
It’s a place with a lot of hills and mountains. And they had those houses where they had long sticks that held them up, up on those mountains and we had to go along different paths to get to the different ones’ houses.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, I bet. Well that’s something, I didn’t know about that.
Calvin Cooke:
That was a lot of fun. Those were some of the best, beautiful people that we had met, and we got to know different families personally that would come in, and every year we go there, we’d head straight for their house.
Robert Stone:
Did they go to church too?
Calvin Cooke:
They would come, when we would come and play. But the church didn’t have that many members, but because we played then the people would come out to hear us play.
Robert Stone:
Did you do any tent stuff, or anything?
Calvin Cooke:
Not there we didn’t. Because they had a little small building. All those people were coal miners people. Coal miners that worked in the coal mine and Somerset, Kentucky and all those places there. We toured there with him, because he was over that district.
Robert Stone:
With- ?
Calvin Cooke:
Bishop Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Bishop Harrison, Bishop Henry Harrison.
Calvin Cooke:
Bishop Henry Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Huh?
Calvin Cooke:
His name was Henry Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Henry Harrison right. That’s the guy I have in the old photo. Right?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, Lorenzo’s brother. He did a lot of traveling and we traveled with him.
Robert Stone:
How long did you keep traveling with him, I mean did…
Calvin Cooke:
Oh I traveled with him until, I believe I was in, when they become of drafting age, they were drafting. I believe when I turned 18 or something like that. I think I was with him up until my… maybe 20, till I was about 20 years old.
Calvin Cooke:
Because during that time, later on, I don’t know what year that was, but Maynard and Starling got drafted. The church got me exempted.
Robert Stone:
Really.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
That was a good lick.
Calvin Cooke:
When I was… yeah they got me exempted. And every year until I got about 20 I believe it was, in September I would get a questionnaire from them in Cleveland, because we would be in Cleveland around about September. And in January, February we’d be in Florida for the summer, winter and they would send me a questionnaire there.
Robert Stone:
The basis for your exemption was because you were a musician?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, playing for the church, giving service for the church. And helping the leaders out.
Robert Stone:
Now, tell me something about Florida. Where did you go in Florida?
Calvin Cooke:
We stayed in Miami.
Robert Stone:
Where?
Calvin Cooke:
I want to say Liberty City. We stayed there and the lead boys. Well I saw each one of them when they where born.
Robert Stone:
Down in Perrine?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, their whole family.
Robert Stone:
They were all born there basically.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, because I was with their father all the time.
Robert Stone:
Right, you knew him.
Calvin Cooke:
And stayed over to his house. We went fishing a lot together.
Robert Stone:
Well you just missed me, I was around there.
Calvin Cooke:
Where?
Robert Stone:
We moved down there in 55. We actually moved to Cutler Ridge.
Calvin Cooke:
The Lee Boys and all those they’re kin to the Harrisons.
Robert Stone:
Yes I know, I know.
Calvin Cooke:
So that was his family that we went down and stayed with. And they treated me exactly like family.
Robert Stone:
So you would stay with the Lees?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, I would be with them sometimes but mostly stay in Miami with Bishop Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Where would you stay in Miami?
Calvin Cooke:
Back there in Liberty City.
Robert Stone:
With some family?
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, with Bishop Harrison’s other brother. His name was, I can’t think of his name, he was a elder, he was over the State of Florida, that particular part of Florida. Like Miami, which name they would call that?
Robert Stone:
Now they would call it the East Coast.
Calvin Cooke:
The East Coast. All the East Coast he was…
Robert Stone:
Fort Lauderdale, Pompano…
Calvin Cooke:
And all that, he was the presiding elder of that.
Robert Stone:
Was that basically… were you making a living doing that, I mean how did it work?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, I was making a living.
Robert Stone:
You were a full time church…
Calvin Cooke:
I was a full time musician.
Robert Stone:
Did you get out of high school or you quit high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Oh I got out of high school. I just went on and did that until I came here and got a job.
Robert Stone:
But did you finish high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
So in other words, I’m just trying to kind of piece it all together. When you were in your earlier teens, you were still a high school student, you would go during break time?
Calvin Cooke:
We would go during break time, in the summer time, we were with Bishop Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Or Christmas vacation.
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Then after you got out of high school?
Calvin Cooke:
After I got…
Robert Stone:
You were full time.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, I went full time with him.
Robert Stone:
Okay, now we’re making sense. Sometimes I got to drag it out of you guys. For the longest time I thought Willie was telling me that he didn’t finish high school, he went on the road with Lockley. And he said, “Oh no, I graduated from high school. Matter of fact I skipped a grade.”
Robert Stone:
When you finished high school, where were you living? In Detroit or Cleveland?
Calvin Cooke:
I was living in Knoxville. I had moved to Knoxville.
Robert Stone:
Tennessee?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
So you finished high school in Knoxville?
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, no when I come out of school.
Robert Stone:
Where were you when you finished, when you went to high school?
Calvin Cooke:
I was in Cleveland.
Robert Stone:
Then you moved to Knoxville?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Because that’s where what’s his name was based, Bishop Harrison?
Calvin Cooke:
That’s where Bishop Harrison stayed.
Calvin Cooke:
Between Bishop Harrison and Bishop Keith, that’s who we were transferred back and forth in the summertime. Matter of fact, he did a lot of traveling with her. And so we played for her and for all her conventions, because he was a part of her diocese, so she would be with him. Especially me, when the other two boys would go with him, then I would go with her.
Robert Stone:
She was the…
Calvin Cooke:
She was the overseer.
Robert Stone:
And he was, what was he?
Calvin Cooke:
He was like the state Bishop. He was over Tennessee, Kentucky and Georgia.
Robert Stone:
When you went to Florida, where you with him or with Bishop Keith?
Calvin Cooke:
I was with him.
Robert Stone:
What was he doing in Florida?
Calvin Cooke:
Just taking it easy.
Robert Stone:
Keeping warm.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Just trying to figure it all out. That’s right you said his brother was…
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah his brother lived there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah that makes sense.
Calvin Cooke:
And his sisters. All his brothers and sisters, and his mother was living at the time.
Robert Stone:
Didn’t they have some kind of family base in Ocala too?
Calvin Cooke:
They had a sister that lived there.
Robert Stone:
Didn’t Lorenzo live there too?
Calvin Cooke:
From what I understand Lorenzo was based from, where’s that Ocala.
Robert Stone:
That’s what I was just saying.
Calvin Cooke:
Lorenzo was based from Ocala, because their mother lived there. And then she would come up to Miami sometimes and they would keep her up there. Because all the sisters and the… it was three brothers. Lorenzo, Elder Harrison and Bishop Harrison. I think they had about, let’s see I’m trying to recollect, one, two, three, about four or five sisters.
Robert Stone:
I should be able to get that all straight from Bishop Manning, I’ll be talking to her. It’s a lot to keep straight, aint it?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes man.
Robert Stone:
Anything in particular you remember about Florida, I’m just curious?
Calvin Cooke:
Actually I remember just being there every year and playing for all the different churches there and just… actually that was like a vacation for me because I fished a lot, stayed with different families. I would leave Miami, go to Fort Lauderdale and visit all the people there.
Robert Stone:
What kind of fishing did you do, I’m curious?
Calvin Cooke:
I went with the Lee boys father a lot.
Robert Stone:
Right, salt water I guess?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, salt water, that’s what we did.
Robert Stone:
Did you go on canals, or go out in a boat?
Calvin Cooke:
A lot of canals. We did that a lot.
Robert Stone:
What catching snapper or?
Calvin Cooke:
Snapper, different types, groupers.
Robert Stone:
Oh yeah man, the fishing was real good in those…
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact what make me remember that so well because when we would come back, everybody would come over to the Lee’s family house. We would all have a big fish fry and salads. We did that a lot of times. That was a big thing for all of us. Then Starling and I we would travel and go all over to different parts, like Fort Lauderdale, I’m trying to think of the other little town…
Robert Stone:
Pompano, Dania.
Calvin Cooke:
Pompano, Dania all those places, when they had something we would be there for the winter. Up until about April or May. April we’d be heading back to Knoxville.
Robert Stone:
When would you go to Florida?
Calvin Cooke:
We would get in Florida about, sometimes the end of January or the middle of February.
Robert Stone:
So you’d wait until it was in the middle of winter. Of course if you were based out of Knoxville it might not have been too bad.
Calvin Cooke:
It wasn’t that bad because back then Knoxville was just as warm at times. During the winter time. It didn’t have a real harsh winter. Except maybe a few days in January. But we weren’t there long enough to really experience it. Because we would leave. Bishop Harrison had a wife, and other children that lived in Knoxville. His wife was used to him doing that. It wasn’t no big thing because he had other children going to college and there were times she would just come on down and join us and stay too.
Robert Stone:
Where were his kids going to college, you remember?
Calvin Cooke:
No I don’t. Right there in Knoxville. I think one went out of Knoxville and went to Chattanooga, but the most of them went there in Knoxville, Tennessee. What school I don’t know.
Robert Stone:
That’s cool.
Calvin Cooke:
I did probably know, but I can’t remember which one it was because if we were there sometimes, we would go see the basketball game or the football game before we pull out.
Robert Stone:
That’s the first you’ve told me about going down to Florida.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s why I know all those people down there. That’s why I know everybody. Matter of fact, I remember Ghent when he was a little boy.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I would go down there, matter of fact when I got the job at Chrysler, I had got used to going to Florida when I would take my vacation in the wintertime, I would leave and go to Florida.
Robert Stone:
Can you hold. Let’s pause this one second, I need to change tapes.
Robert Stone:
Okay, we’re rolling again. You were talking about seeing Aubrey Ghent as a little boy?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah he was a little boy, and Kenny Ellis. They were little boys, young fellas back then. They wasn’t even playing any guitars or anything. I would go down there and play during the time I was down there. I would spend two weeks and I would stay with the Young family then.
Robert Stone:
Young family?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah Kenny Ellis auntie, and Ghent’s grandfather was the Pastor of the Church.
Robert Stone:
In Fort Pierce?
Calvin Cooke:
In Fort Lauderdale, Elder Ghent.
Robert Stone:
But they were out of Fort Pierce but he was pastoring in Fort Lauderdale.
Calvin Cooke:
They might have been staying there, but I know he pastored, he pastored there for a long time.
Robert Stone:
Somebody told me he was somehow involved in Citrus, Elder Ghent.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh okay, I don’t know about that. But I remembered he pastored in Fort Lauderdale.
Robert Stone:
Tell me, where there differences back then in the music and church situation?
Calvin Cooke:
When I came along, they were playing, we considered like… Bishop Harrison had a son, his name was Henry too, we called him Junior. He played strictly Henry Nelson style. And he hated our style. He hated Lorenzo style, he didn’t like it. He felt like it wasn’t real music. When I started playing, come in and the other two boys, they had like, Bishop Dillard was a reverend then, they were playing for the church, and there was another man named Elder Brown, he was playing lead guitar for the church. And when I came along and started playing, then they started moving over and let me play the steel, being more dominant. Being with Bishop Keith then I just started playing the steel regular for everything that went on.
Robert Stone:
Was there drums back then?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, who was the drummer back then was, especially when we playing Tennessee, Elder Robinson. But the band who played with Bishop Keith mostly would be me, Charles Wooding.
Robert Stone:
Charles Wooding what did he play, lead?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, Charles Wooding played the drums. Walter Wooding played the piano. Starling Harrison played the lead or the steel, him and I would switch up. Maynard would play the lead or the bass. And we was her band for a long time, also Bishop Harrison’s band. Charles also did the driving for Bishop Keith, wherever she wanted to go.
Robert Stone:
Did you ever do any of that driving?
Calvin Cooke:
No, I always rode.
Robert Stone:
When, I get easily confused. Did you eventually quit playing for Harrison and just played for Keith? I mean did he…
Calvin Cooke:
What happened, I think in 59, he would come and get me sometimes, but then I just started playing for her regular until she died in 61. I would be the one who played for all the assemblies and conventions. Matter of fact Bishop Harrison would be there anyway. But he would leave me with her sometimes, because he had the other two boys with him. Well until they drafted him. And then it would be just me traveling.
Calvin Cooke:
Whoever played the lead back then, I would play with them when I get to the different conventions.
Robert Stone:
That was like up until you finished high school? Because you would have finished in about ’62, when I finished. And she died in ’62?
Calvin Cooke:
She died in ’61. Then Bishop Jenkins came in and I believe in ’61 or ’62. Early ’62. No late ’61 because she died in July of ’61. Matter of fact, she had sent us to South Pittsburg, Tennessee for a two week vacation. We just got out of Nashville. We went there with a Elder Jackson, stayed there for two weeks and then that’s when we got the announcement she had passed.
Robert Stone:
Then did you just start right in playing for Bishop Jenkins?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, started right on playing with him. Back then…
Robert Stone:
Now were you playing for him as a job?
Calvin Cooke:
No what happened, I kind of came home with Bishop Harrison and wherever Bishop Jenkins would go, he would call us and we would meet him at the different functions, different assemblies and play and then I would just travel with Bishop Harrison for a while.
Robert Stone:
What I’m getting at is that what you were doing for work, or were you doing other work?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, it was still a job.
Robert Stone:
When did you quit playing as a job and go to work for Chrysler.
Calvin Cooke:
I went to work at Chrysler in… in 66 I went home to Cleveland, 67 I went to Detroit and I told them, they had just had a convention there. And I went there for that and after I came here, actually I was moving to Florida.
Calvin Cooke:
What happened, one of the guys before I left asked me on the street would I take him to Chrysler they were hiring and would I take him over there and bring him back home, so he could see about getting a job. I took him over there and went in with him and they gave me a test paper, I took the test. I passed, he didn’t. I haven’t seen him no more since.
Robert Stone:
You got the job?
Calvin Cooke:
I got the job and I had called my mother and told her what happened and she said, “Well I think you should get that job, because I don’t think that would ever happen.” Really I didn’t want the job. Because I wanted to move to Florida.
Calvin Cooke:
Then what happened they had, the guys were saying that if you asked for a janitor’s job they tell you that weren’t no more you could go. They wanted everybody for the line. I didn’t want to work on the line. When they called me in for an interview, they asked me what job I was interested in, I told them a janitor’s job, cause I assumed they was going to let me go.
Calvin Cooke:
They said, “We got one available, and you got it. Do you want it?” I said yeah and started working in October 16, 1967. Never forgot it. I called my mother and told her I had the job, she said I think you did enough traveling for the church, you been a lot of places, now you’re starting to make a better future for yourself and stay there. I paid that attention.
Calvin Cooke:
Back then we only worked five days, but I still would leave, back then plane fare was cheap as dirt and we’d travel or travel mostly by car and play with Bishop Jenkins or wherever he was until I finally just started staying at home more and more.
Robert Stone:
But at first you were like down there most every weekend?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah every weekend.
Robert Stone:
Wow that’s a lot.
Calvin Cooke:
Ghent and Ronnie Hall and I played a lot together, doing the different assemblies. I think Treadway had kind of left and Ronnie Hall and I would play here in Detroit together with a couple of other guys.
Robert Stone:
Well Treadway was in the Jewell Dominion anyhow.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And actually too, I really don’t want to forget this, who really helped me too back in the 50s and playing, when he would come to Cleveland was Bobby Toliver. His name was Robert Toliver. He’s the one who really encouraged me to, and gave me a chance when the church didn’t want me to play because I played so bad. They couldn’t stand to hear me play. One day they had an assembly and he said I want you play for this assembly, this night. And the people was begging him not to let me play. He told me well he got to learn somehow. And he said we’re going to play anyway. And he had already prepped me to how the people was going to react. After that I started learning more and playing more and playing and playing until things gotten better and better and better. He spent a lot of time with me.
Robert Stone:
As a musician?
Calvin Cooke:
Right as a musician. He spent a lot of time.
Robert Stone:
He’s a little older than you, right?
Calvin Cooke:
Oh he’s way, yeah. Bobby might be about 65 or so, he was like, to all of us up there, he was a very personable guy, more like a father who talked to us, helped us, let us play. He was the top musician for the State of Ohio then.
Robert Stone:
That was in Jewell Dominion?
Calvin Cooke:
No in the Keith Dominion. He was always in the Keith Dominion.
Robert Stone:
I’m going to interview him soon too.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s from, I would say from the time we met, from 56. Because he was one of the guys who played for everything and all the conventions for Ohio. So I spent a lot of time with him. Actually he’s the first guy who really had a pedal steel.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, well that’s what I hear.
Calvin Cooke:
He’s the first guy who really had the pedal steel guitar, but he’d never taken it out much, or flamboyant that he did this or that. He played home a lot. He played in the state.
Robert Stone:
Kind of stuck around Ohio.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he stuck around in the state. He didn’t do a lot of traveling all over the place, no more than Nashville, but he didn’t publicize that he could play and do all that. But he was a excellent musician.
Robert Stone:
He was uh?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Did he set up his Steel different, was it like a Nashville set up?
Calvin Cooke:
No, his was set up totally different.
Robert Stone:
Not like Nashville?
Calvin Cooke:
No, he had a totally different sound.
Robert Stone:
Okay, I’m going to be talking to him about that. Nothing like yours or anything?
Calvin Cooke:
No. No, he got his own tuning. Own way of tuning his guitar so some of the licks and some of the things I learned from him.
Robert Stone:
Well that’s neat. He seems like a real nice fellow.
Calvin Cooke:
He is. He’s always been the same. He’s always the same. Matter of fact his whole family has been in the Keith Dominion. Bishop Massey is his Auntie. His father is Bishop Massey’s brother, if you know her. That’s the lady that’s 105 years old.
Robert Stone:
Wow. Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
It’s a lot of history from back then.
Robert Stone:
It sure is.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, I’ve watched a lot of kids grow up from…
Robert Stone:
Ohio’s still got a pretty good Keith Dominion contingent?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Maybe we can talk some about the whole pedal steel thing. When did you start, how did that go for you, when did you start getting into it and how and all that?
Calvin Cooke:
Actually in ’67. No, I’m sorry ’74. I think before then, my cousin, Tubby. I went to Cleveland, I believe it was early part of ’74 to see my mother. And Tubby told me to go with him to a guitar shop. He saw one of the best steels he ever seen, because we always play a lap then. He showed me this Sho-Bud, I mean MSA. After he showed it to me, I went back home and I was just telling my mother about it that I was going to try and get it. The guy said the guitar cost $900 at the time.
Calvin Cooke:
I come back from Nashville in June of ’74, my mother said come home, I need to see you. That was the first part of July. When I got home she had already bought that guitar, her and my brother Freddy and gave me that guitar and I’ve had it ever since.
Robert Stone:
Really, that same one?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s been like 29 years, almost 30 years.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Sure did.
Robert Stone:
I never realized that. Wow what a story.
Calvin Cooke:
So I kept that and that’s the same guitar I’ve been playing for 29 years.
Robert Stone:
How did it go about figuring out how to deal with this. How to use it and how to tune.
Calvin Cooke:
When I got it, I called Chuck. He came up and spent a week with me and set the guitar up. After he set it up and showed me how to tune it and how to work the pedals and then I start going back to church here and playing it every week and start developing how the different sounds that I would want, and start practicing and that. Because he’s the one who really showed me how to-
Robert Stone:
But he was just a kid.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, but he had gotten one and I think Ted had gotten one a year before. So when my mother bought me that one and brother, then Chucky came up, I believe that same year and showed me how to play that guitar. I believe in September that same year. He had gotten married then. Him and his wife had came up, his first wife at the time, came up spent a week with me. And showed me how to, what to do, how to tune it up. Tune it in my tuning. How to change the pedals. What to do with the different things on it. And that’s how I started from there.
Robert Stone:
Do you see Chuck as the guy who, not the first guy who had a pedal steel, but the guy who really understood it or made it kind of work? How do you see that? I’d like to get your view point.
Calvin Cooke:
Actually, Bobby Toliver was, because he used his some. But he wasn’t as open with it. Actually, well I could say Chuck was, because Chuck was younger and more energetic and he was the one who really started learning different things. Back then I was the fast guy on the eight without pedals, and then after Chuck learned the pedals and the different techniques and learned how to play country and different other stuff, then he started getting faster. So I would say he would be the one. Because Ted and I never did any of that. Ted learned how to play pedals within his style, and I learned how to play in my style, but I could never learn how to pick like they do. I used mine for leading and stuff like that.
Robert Stone:
Do you see Chuck as a big influence then?
Calvin Cooke:
Right now, yes. He’s a large influence because now, all the young guys pattern after him. All the guys, matter of fact if you hear them, that’s who you hear play in their music, it’s Chuck, his style.
Calvin Cooke:
Chuck takes a mixture of me and Henry and now he has hisself and so he mixes all this together and created a different style along with his brother and then by being faster, then all the other guys got pedals like Robert, and then they began to pattern after Chuck. So I would say he would be the one who really, in this particular generation, started that chain going.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, that’s how I’ve seen him.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he’s the one who really started that episode of the fast work and the different pedal changes, he’s the one who done that.
Robert Stone:
I remember when I first was starting, I was actually trying to get his phone number and I called Darryl Brundidge. And I asked him about Chuck and what kind of player was he, he said “Bob, you know Glenn”, because he knew that I knew Glenn Lee, “he learned every lick he knows from Chuck.” That was the way he put it, those were his words.
Calvin Cooke:
Chuck is the one who really started what’s going on now. He’s the one who really started that.
Robert Stone:
Of course, it’s my perception that Phil is such a good guitar player, to have your own brother right there by your side, who’s a good guitar player that sure helps a person develop.
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Because as we musicians know, a lead man whose ever playing rhythm or whatever, a guy playing steel, whose ever backing him up, that lead guitar player as you guys call it…
Calvin Cooke:
That’s right.
Robert Stone:
Really has a whole lot to do with what you play.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s right he has a lot. It’s like Jay and I playing together. I depend on him.
Robert Stone:
Exactly.
Calvin Cooke:
Because without Jay doing certain things, I wouldn’t be able to do certain things. So it’s the same way with those two, it’s like a team.
Robert Stone:
Who were some of your favorite guitar players in years earlier. You know, that played lead with you?
Calvin Cooke:
Ronnie Hall.
Robert Stone:
Ronnie Hall.
Calvin Cooke:
Ronnie Hall was one of the best, I felt. Kenny Ellis, he had a different style, but I had been in the Jewell all my life and I still had their feel and their music with me. And Kenny Ellis didn’t play that style and I got used to the style he played. So I would count him as one of the best over here.
Calvin Cooke:
Then there was a guy named Larry Taylor. Larry Taylor was very progressive.
Robert Stone:
He was Gary Taylor’s brother.
Calvin Cooke:
Gary Taylor’s brother. Matter of fact, they were just here last week.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Their aunt died. Their last aunt died, so they all was here.
Robert Stone:
So Larry was up there too?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, Josh was here.
Robert Stone:
I’ve never met Larry.
Calvin Cooke:
Josh was here too. And we were all together. But Larry Taylor, Ronnie Hall and these were the earlier years. All the other older guys I was talking about, they were gone or drifted away.
Calvin Cooke:
Larry Taylor was one of the main guys who played with me until he left. Then Kenny Ellis was always a main guy after he got started and Ronnie Hall. These were the guys over on the Keith side I was influenced with.
Robert Stone:
Before you got the pedal still you were playing…
Calvin Cooke:
I was playing a Fender.
Robert Stone:
A Fender Eight, a deluxe Eight with the two pick ups. You did the thing with the volume knob and all. Do you have any idea, of course to me it would seem difficult to see who was the first one who did that. But does anybody stick out in your mind as somebody who did that a lot early on?
Calvin Cooke:
With the?
Robert Stone:
Using the knob.
Calvin Cooke:
Lorenzo Harrison. That’s where we got it from. We got that from Lorenzo. And I brought it over here.
Robert Stone:
And then, because Nelson did it.
Calvin Cooke:
He may have, because Nelson wasn’t… well I kept playing lead for a long time, until Ted finally came in.
Robert Stone:
Back in what the early 60s?
Calvin Cooke:
The early 60s. Henry may have gotten it from us all the time, because I watched Lorenzo do it and all the guys over there. Lorenzo did it a lot and changed the tone on it and used it, so that’s where I got it from. And the guys I guess, watched me do it over here and they got it from me.
Robert Stone:
And saw Harrison do it.
Calvin Cooke:
Lorenzo, I’m going to tell you, if he was alive, you’d have been glad to meet him because he was a… all that’s happening now, Lorenzo used to try making records, because Bishop Mannings and them had a group one time, and different things and he was a very progressive man. And plus he was the type of guy that enjoyed meeting people like you and playing and doing this type of thing.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, it’s too bad.
Calvin Cooke:
He’s nothing like what’s in there now, nothing like Ronnie. Nothing like that. He sit down and talk to you, take you around, have you for dinner.
Robert Stone:
I don’t know what’s up with Ronnie.
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know man, he’s just off his rocker.
Robert Stone:
I don’t know what it is.
Calvin Cooke:
But Lorenzo was- and what not. Friendly, he was just a people’s person.
Robert Stone:
I wish I had’ve met him. I have heard some of the old tapes and, we’re hoping to do some recording of the Jewell Dominion. Even there’s the idea of trying to get Ronnie to play some of Harrison’s old stuff.
Calvin Cooke:
Well Ronnie plays just like him anyway. So all the stuff you hear Ronnie play mostly that’s Lorenzo.
Robert Stone:
He was a pretty inventive guy, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
Lorenzo was very inventive, before his time. And matter of fact, he was the type of guy who just really stressed out by feeling the spirit and played what came to him. Even though I didn’t play over there or learn how to play over there, his influence of music was so much with me because I was there Wednesday and Friday and Sundays. And it was so much a part of me and then our families were so close to each other, until I couldn’t help but be a part of it.
Robert Stone:
You just absorbed it.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. And then playing over here, I still would go hear him, or go be with him and we would sit down and talk. It was an honor when he would listen and come to hear me and see the progress. Because to him, you felt like… Bishop Jewell would say we were still hers, no matter where we went, we were still a part of her family. Which I always felt. Still a part of the family. Matter of fact I still feel a part of both families. Because I grew up and know everybody on both sides. We’re the older people. I’ll put it like that.
Robert Stone:
Right, of course all of that… what tension was there, a lot of that’s eased up over time hasn’t it?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, a lot of it. When it came to us, we had no problems. There musicians or us, because a lot of times, we would lead the Keith side, be down in Nashville early and the Jewell assembly would be going on and we’d attend that. And Bishop Jewell would have me singing and participating in the service. Because my aunt and cousins are all over there and that’s what we always did. We were home and Lorenzo’s brother would come and visit. So we would still go over there and be with them and be a part. There was no difference for us, no change. Because as far as she was concerned we were her kids, we came back, she called me to say that once in a while I get a chance to play and that would be a big thrill for me, even though I didn’t do that well, because my cousins and them knew me and they knew I played for Bishop Keith. And Lorenzo would sometimes get up and say, “Calvin, come to play during the offering.” And stuff like that.
Calvin Cooke:
That would be a big thing for me, young fellow, during my years coming up. And then being around him and getting to know him personally and talking with him and to hear him tell me how he felt about my music and progress and being with his nephew. That was a honor for me to really be around him. And both brothers sitting together talk about old times and family. One thing those brothers didn’t do is squabble about this church thing.
Robert Stone:
Is that right?
Calvin Cooke:
No they didn’t do that.
Robert Stone:
Even though they were on different…
Calvin Cooke:
Right, they got together as brothers. And any time Lorenzo would come over when he was in town or we both would be in the same town, he would come over to be with us.
Robert Stone:
We won’t go too much longer, I got to get some dinner here and I know you got things to do, you’re leaving town.
Calvin Cooke:
Well we just come in, I just finished doing some stuff. Grace went back out and I want to make sure I get home with you.
Robert Stone:
I appreciate it, I really do.
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t mind. Thank you.
Robert Stone:
I’m real, real glad that you got your record album.
Calvin Cooke:
Thank you so much.
Robert Stone:
Because obviously it just wasn’t happening with Arhoolie.
Calvin Cooke:
Well things worked out.
Robert Stone:
No, they got their limits. It’s a small deal.
Calvin Cooke:
I understand.
Robert Stone:
It’s basically, Chris does it. It all goes the way Chris wants it to go. It’s almost like a hobby or something, it’s a business, but it’s very personalized. He’s been real good over the years. He’s helped a lot of people get started that have gone on to bigger and better things.
Calvin Cooke:
Well he helped us a lot, all of us. If it wasn’t for him Robert wouldn’t be where he is. None of us really, so you expect people to branch out and go different ways. Matter of fact a guy called me yesterday, who called Arhoolie trying to get in touch with me. So Arhoolie got in touch with me and this guy play all Arhoolie stuff in Toledo.
Robert Stone:
Really, like on the radio.
Calvin Cooke:
He’s getting ready to set up a festival or something that’s getting ready to come up.
Robert Stone:
So he has a radio show?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, he has a radio show in Toledo. And I didn’t know that.
Robert Stone:
That’s great.
Calvin Cooke:
So he wants us in October to come play on that.
Robert Stone:
Arhoolie has been at this, Chris has been at this for 40 years, a lot of people know him and have come to respect him. I bought my first Arhoolie records probably in around 1966, something like that. He started in 1960, so I don’t go back all the way, but I’m…
Calvin Cooke:
One thing I’m glad that he won that Grammy. I’m glad to know that.
Robert Stone:
That’s real good.
Calvin Cooke:
I’m proud of him. As a matter of fact, I’m proud of all the stuff that he has done for us. And those records of his are special to me. People got to know us through him or else we wouldn’t have been known.
Calvin Cooke:
Actually this started all our careers, Chuck everybody. This wouldn’t have never happened if it hadn’t been for him and you taking a chance on us to present our music.
Robert Stone:
Thanks. It’s pretty easy, because we can hear it. You know it when you hear it.
Calvin Cooke:
And now all the people are excited and it makes us feel good. And I’m telling you, to me it’s just a thrill. I’m enjoying this. I’m going to try to make the best of it.
Robert Stone:
Well, I tell you we might be at a good breaking point as far as this interview goes. But we’ll need to talk again.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Because you’ve got a lot to tell me. I want to get it all right.
Calvin Cooke:
When you talk to Bishop Manning you’ll get a lot because she would have been there and know a lot from that particular side. A lot of interesting, you know.
Robert Stone:
There’s a whole lot. I got especially interested tonight hearing you talk about Florida. I didn’t realize that you’d been down there like that.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh yeah, Florida is a state that I’ve always loved.
Robert Stone:
And the fishing was good back in those days.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh man we had fun.
Robert Stone:
Wasn’t it though?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, yes that’s the only reason I really loved going down and staying. Did I like the weather, sure and everything. I got used to it too. Actually living here because of Chrysler it took me a long time to get used to being here in the winters.
Robert Stone:
I guess so.
Calvin Cooke:
I had a real tough time.
Robert Stone:
Well it’s pretty serious winter up there.
Calvin Cooke:
I had a real tough time getting used to it. Because every year I wanted to go to Florida. I did it for a while on vacation, but then I eventually just stayed here. Everything worked out.
Robert Stone:
Yeah that’s for sure.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, everything worked itself out. Now I’m retired, now this is going on, I have the group so I still can’t get to Florida.
Robert Stone:
But you get here when you need to, right.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yes, so I’m not complaining now, everything worked out fine.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, it’s all worked. Sounds like it’s going real well, I’m glad. Well Calvin have a great time down there at your assembly and say high to anybody I know.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay Bob, I sure will and soon as everything come out, I’ll be shipping you one right away.
Robert Stone:
Please do, I’m real anxious to hear that, and you know they’re going to do some good promotion. I’ll look for you on MTV.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. That’ll be great. Old 62 year old man on MTV.
Robert Stone:
You’re not 62 man, don’t forget to tell Robert that about that.
Calvin Cooke:
I’m going to see him, he’s going to be in Nashville.
Robert Stone:
Tell him that about 10 times.
Calvin Cooke:
I sure will, Okay Bob.
Robert Stone:
Tell him I’m upset too, because if you’re 62, I am too.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s right.
Robert Stone:
All righty, well say hi to Grace for me.
Calvin Cooke:
I sure will.
Robert Stone:
Travel safely, you’re driving I guess.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Have a good trip, thanks again Calvin.
Calvin Cooke:
All right, bye, bye.
Robert Stone:
Okay. We should be rolling now. I’ll just put an identifier on it. This is Bob Stone. I’m interviewing Mr. Calvin Cooke. It’s August 4th, 2003. So, good to hear from you, man.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, same here.
Robert Stone:
You sound great.
Calvin Cooke:
Thank you.
Robert Stone:
How’s those kidneys behaving?
Calvin Cooke:
Man, matter of fact, everything is going so far pretty good.
Robert Stone:
Great.
Calvin Cooke:
And Grace wanted to be a donor, so we went down and got tested, and so she’s a match.
Robert Stone:
Oh great.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. But every time I thought I was going down there, I’d go down, and they said, “Oh, come back in such and such a time.” So I guess I’ve been doing pretty good. And they said they’re not down to that point. And so they’ve been checking in and taking a lot of blood tests and different stuff. So, so far I’ve been holding on.
Robert Stone:
Good. Good for you. Well, great. Yeah. Take care of yourself.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. My sister has got a health challenge going on herself. She’s got-
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, what happened?
Robert Stone:
Well, she’s got some just beginnings of breast cancer, but it’s going to be… It’s very, very early, so they’re not going to have to do a mastectomy or anything.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, how’s she doing?
Robert Stone:
Well, she just found out Friday, so she was in shock.
Calvin Cooke:
I know. I know.
Robert Stone:
Plus her mother-in-law died just the week before, so her and her husband they’re…
Calvin Cooke:
That’s kind of rough.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, her mother-in-law was 92, but still.
Calvin Cooke:
I know, when I found out about my kidneys, I’d been going and going and had it all this time and didn’t know it. Man, it was a shock to me, boy.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. You got to-
Calvin Cooke:
I had to really… It took a while for me to get straightened out about that.
Robert Stone:
I’m sure. I’m sure it would. It’s like as much as we know, it’s still hard to realize that it applies to us.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s true. Now that I’m older, anything can happen.
Robert Stone:
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of exactly when, and just how it will happen.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s why now I’m just going to live and enjoy things.
Robert Stone:
Right. Don’t sweat the small stuff. And guess what? It’s all small stuff.
Calvin Cooke:
It’s like if me and Grace have a little argument or something, in a minute I say, “Wait a minute, Hey, I’m sorry. I apologize. Let’s go eat. Babe, let’s forget about it. That’s not necessary,” or different things. And I’ve learned to really just take things as they come now. It may get you at first, but a few more minutes you think about it, hey-
Robert Stone:
Not worth it.
Calvin Cooke:
It ain’t worth it.
Robert Stone:
It’s not worth it. Give it up and move on.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Man, we had a wonderful vacation all summer. Then we just got back yesterday with all our families. Went to Six Flags and spent the night, and we had a good time over there. And then we went to-
Robert Stone:
Down in Georgia, you mean?
Calvin Cooke:
No, here in Ohio.
Robert Stone:
Oh, really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We went there and then we stopped at another place and Sunday, we were there. Six Flags, Saturday, and then Sunday, they had a place where all the wild animals are out and you can ride through and different things. So we were there Sunday. And then we spent a whole day there and had an excellent time.
Robert Stone:
Well, great.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, that was a nice trip. And we’ll be in Columbus this weekend. They got an assembly going on. So they want me to come and play for that. So I’m going to go over there. Ted is playing Sunday, I’m going to play Saturday. Then I’m coming straight back home, because there’s a concert I want to go to.
Robert Stone:
Who’s that?
Calvin Cooke:
Rachel Lambert and some other guy.
Robert Stone:
Not familiar with them.
Calvin Cooke:
A gospel singer. So they’ve been doing pretty good.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Well, great.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Well, let’s get down to business here.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
And I hope you don’t mind, but I’m just trying to get-
Calvin Cooke:
No, I don’t mind.
Robert Stone:
Just trying to get things straight. Now, first question, your mother bought you a Spanish neck electric guitar.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Who bought it at first was a lady named May Hodge. Well, Elder May Hodge, she was an elder.
Robert Stone:
Hodge? H-O-D-G-E?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, H-O-D-G-E. Elder May Hodge.
Robert Stone:
So she bought you a guitar.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. She bought the… They had just started a church. Well, matter of fact, in ’55, everybody in that area, Ohio, had come out of Jewell, all at one time.
Robert Stone:
Had come out of Jewell and gone to-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. We all were a member of Jewell’s Dominion during that time.
Robert Stone:
So pretty much everybody… So many people in Ohio switched.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Matter of fact, it might have been over half our church came out, about seven, eight families, I believe it was, had came out, and they didn’t have no musicians. And she happened to buy a Spanish guitar, and it was big black one. And I never forget the color of that. And I tried to play it, because I had knew chords already, little chords, and was trying to play it, but I was so short and small, my hands couldn’t make all the cords because the neck was so big. And so I would turn it over.
Robert Stone:
So do you remember about when that was?
Calvin Cooke:
’55, ’56. It had to be at least starting in maybe 1956. I may not be correct, but somewhere around ’56.
Robert Stone:
One of the tricks that we all use for remembering dates, and I can help you with this as we move along, is that if you can’t remember the year, you try and remember something else that happened about that time, like somebody was born or died, or of course a big thing like moving to churches, that can often help you, say, “Oh yeah, I know it was before my mother died” or, “Before my sister so-and-so was born” or whatever.
Calvin Cooke:
I was trying to think of something special during that time. So it had to be… Being around Lorenzo and them, we were used to being around guitars. So it had to be about ’56.
Robert Stone:
Well, maybe this will help. Now, you said previously when you were about 13-
Calvin Cooke:
It had to be-
Robert Stone:
When you were about 13, you got a steel. So that would have been 1957.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. All right. So, it’s 1956. I mean, no, 1955.
Robert Stone:
’55.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. 1955.
Robert Stone:
So about two years before you got the steel?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. Because I would play that guitar with a knife.
Robert Stone:
In church?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. I would turn it over and play it like a steel. And I played that for a long time like that. And then what happened, my cousin Maynard, his mother bought him a guitar. I don’t know what year, it might have been around about the same time. And he started learning, and what he would do would play bass on that. And him and I would be the only two who played together at that time. And then, that’s when my mother… ’56, ’57, ’56, when she bought the steel guitar.
Robert Stone:
Now, was that the black one with the chrome?
Calvin Cooke:
That was the Rickenbacker.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Now Maynard, was he your same age or more or less?
Calvin Cooke:
Maynard is about a year or two years older than me.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, I just talked to him not too long ago.
Robert Stone:
Oh, he’s still alive.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. He’s my first cousin.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Maybe I can get his phone number from you.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Before we finish.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. All right. Well I’ll try to find it. Matter of fact, we-
Robert Stone:
Where does he live?
Calvin Cooke:
In Seattle, Washington with Starlin.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, all three of us played together.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Right. Yeah. I guess I wasn’t aware that he was still alive and that he lived out there.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. What happened, when he got drafted and somehow him and Starlin wind up there after they got out of the Army, or got stationed there or something, then they just stayed.
Robert Stone:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Okay. Well, that’s good to know. Now, before I forget, Ronnie Hall, how old of a guy was he?
Calvin Cooke:
Ronnie-
Robert Stone:
Now, he has passed, right?
Calvin Cooke:
No, no. Ronnie is still living.
Robert Stone:
Oh, really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. He’s a bishop of his own church now.
Robert Stone:
Do you know how to get ahold of him?
Calvin Cooke:
I could get his number from my brother.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Man, that’d be great.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I can get that from my brother.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, that’d be real good.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. They might know, remember some dates better than I do now.
Robert Stone:
No, it’s always good to have a double, but also just to get his… Because you talk about him and Sonny coming over. Now, was Ronnie in Detroit at that time when he was-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Ronnie always lived here in Detroit.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Okay. All right, I thought he was passed, so that’s good to know.
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, he’s doing… He got hurt one time, car hit him. He had a flat tire, and the girl knocked one of his legs off and they had to take the other leg. But he still gets around and still does…
Robert Stone:
So he’s got both legs amputated?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. But he’s still… He’s got those prosthesis or whatever you call it.
Robert Stone:
Prosthesis, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
And he still gets around and still jubilant. And he still plays the steel.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Still preaches. Still do everything like he been doing.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
And he’s in Detroit still.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Wow. What a story.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay. Let’s… Well, first off, before I forget, tell me a little more about your mother and father. What I’m trying to do, Calvin, just in case you haven’t… Because I realized, I know it, maybe not everybody else… I’m trying to write a pretty good sized chapter about you, about yourself-
Calvin Cooke:
How I grew up and whatnot?
Robert Stone:
Yeah, and also, some of the things I want to get into, a little bit of background on your family, who they were, how they got to where they were, and what your dad did for a living, and that sort of stuff. And then also, when you went on the road with these different bishops, the kinds of things that went on. So we can flesh this thing out, so take people back to what your life was like, what you did besides play in church. I just was reading, realized that apparently you worked on churches with Harris and all that. So all that stuff and also some other stuff that you told me before, but I don’t have… I want to get some… It’s always good to get quotes about how you could only listen to certain things on the radio when you were traveling and stuff. But anyhow, so your folks-
Calvin Cooke:
My mother was a-
Robert Stone:
And what was her name?
Calvin Cooke:
Elizabeth Cooke. And when we worked with Bishop Jewell, she used to sing a lot, solos. And my father, well actually, my father, the guy who raised me was named William Cooke. And he worked at a steel mill, Republic Steel in Cleveland. And he sang in the singing group with one of my uncles. And they would sing with Sam Cooke, the-
Robert Stone:
The Soul Stirrers.
Calvin Cooke:
The Soul Stirrers.
Robert Stone:
So was he in a quartet?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he was in a quartet. I don’t know the name of that quartet back then. But he was in the quartet [crosstalk 00:14:05].
Robert Stone:
With your uncles?
Calvin Cooke:
Huh?
Robert Stone:
With your uncles?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, with one of my uncles. And I can’t remember the other gentleman’s name, other people’s name, but I remember those two, because they used to practice at our house.
Robert Stone:
Now, when you say an uncle, was it his brother?
Calvin Cooke:
No, his brother-in-law.
Robert Stone:
His brother-in-law.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Now, you said he raised you, so was he your stepfather?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
I didn’t find out he wasn’t until after he died. He died when I was about, I believe I was 12 years old. He had cancer.
Robert Stone:
What did he do at the steel mill? Do you know?
Calvin Cooke:
No, I don’t.
Robert Stone:
Okay. That’s all right. Name of the place was Republic Steel.
Robert Stone:
Republic Steel. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
I believe it was.
Robert Stone:
Sure. That was a big one.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
It’s probably shut down now with all the rest of them.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. Every time I come to Cleveland, I would see the place and think about it.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Sure, sure. That was rough work too, but he probably did pretty good.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he did. Well, one thing every weekend, I think he… Well, now that I think about it, he worked five days. Because on the weekend we were always going fishing with him and my uncle. My brother and I, Gary, every weekend we’d go fishing, a Friday evening or either mostly Saturday morning. Early Saturday morning, we’d be fishing with them. And then the next weekend, the whole family come over and we’d have a fish fry out in the backyard. That happened every other week.
Robert Stone:
And so fishing one week and fish fry the next, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
And then a fish fry, yeah. Sometime it would happen, if he was off, we’d go a Friday and go fishing in Cleveland, downtown, a place called On the Rocks. And then Saturday, he’s the one that taught me how to clean the fish as soon as we catch it, so we wouldn’t have to do it at home, and do that. And on Saturdays, the aunts and all the sisters and brothers, my mother’s part of the family, they’d all come over and be in the backyard, back then they didn’t have the grills, you built your own grill with bricks and put a grate across it and made it like that. And then they would cook outside and fry fish and do all that outside.
Robert Stone:
So you and I being the same age, I know what you’re saying when you talk about stuff like that, because there weren’t barbecue grills around that much.
Calvin Cooke:
No, we didn’t have that then.
Robert Stone:
They were just starting-
Calvin Cooke:
You made your own grill then.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, a lot of people.
Calvin Cooke:
… a lot of different stuff [crosstalk 00:17:26]
Robert Stone:
A lot of people had a concrete grill or bricks out in their backyard, permanent.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s right. They sure were. That’s the way they were.
Robert Stone:
And where would you do that? At your house?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. At our house.
Robert Stone:
At your place. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We lived in Cleveland.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
On the next street where we would walk up to it, would be Hough. And that’s where all the barbecue stands, the pawn shops-
Robert Stone:
How do you spell that?
Calvin Cooke:
I think H-O-F… Grace, how do you spell Hough? I can’t hear you. H-U-F-F? H-U-F-F. I think that’s it.
Robert Stone:
Okay. So that’s where all the barbecue…
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, all the barbecue shops were. We could walk there at night.
Robert Stone:
And pawn shops, you said?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, and pawn shops. Yeah. They all be lined up.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Great. So, this On the Rocks, your fishing hole, what body of water was that? Do you know?
Calvin Cooke:
Lake Erie.
Robert Stone:
Lake Erie.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
What kind of fish would you catch?
Calvin Cooke:
We would catch white bass, perch, pike, and sheepshead, shad. Those are the ones I remember.
Robert Stone:
So, you still like to fish.
Calvin Cooke:
I do it all the time, when I get a chance.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, I noticed.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Nah, I enjoy it too. I don’t do it enough.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, you grow up with it. So it was the time you spent with your father too.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Matter of fact, his father lived in, I believe in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And he brought a guitar up during the same time I had got a guitar from May Hodge.
Robert Stone:
Now what was your father’s father’s name?
Calvin Cooke:
I can’t remember his name, because we would very seldom see him. And he’d come up.
Robert Stone:
Now, was your father of any rank in the church?
Calvin Cooke:
No. Matter of fact, he was never a member of the church. But he just sang, just sang in singing group. But he knew that’s where we were all the time.
Robert Stone:
Right. But it was your mother that was…
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. It was my mother who was, and all of us.
Robert Stone:
Now, was she a deaconess?
Calvin Cooke:
No, she was just a regular-
Robert Stone:
Just a member.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, because my grandmother, all my uncles and aunts on my mother’s side, all of them were a member of the Jewell Dominion at that time..
Robert Stone:
Your grandmother and all on her side?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Great aunts… Our entire family.
Robert Stone:
Right. Now, how many brothers and sisters did you have?
Calvin Cooke:
I have three brothers, three sisters.
Robert Stone:
How many are still alive?
Calvin Cooke:
All of them.
Robert Stone:
All still alive.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
So there were seven kids all together.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, seven of us.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Now back to… So, you got that Rickenbacker lap steel in about 1957?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Have you seen that one that I have that’s bakelite? The black-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, I think that’s the one you showed me.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
I think you showed me [crosstalk 00:21:27].
Robert Stone:
Was it like that?
Calvin Cooke:
That might have been it. I’m not sure. And then Chuck had one. I don’t know if he’s still got it or not.
Robert Stone:
I think he might have sold it.
Calvin Cooke:
I saw one in Nashville, but they wanted so much money for that.
Robert Stone:
They’re sought after.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, man. And I wanted to get it, but that guy wanted a lot of money for that guitar.
Robert Stone:
Generally-
Calvin Cooke:
A six string.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, generally you can get them for under $1,000.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
But it’s going to be in the high hundreds.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Now, and some of these questions, I’m going to be jumping around in time, so just bear with me. Where was your church in Cleveland?
Calvin Cooke:
We had several. First location that I can remember, it was on Euclid, I think when we left the Jewell Dominion.
Robert Stone:
Euclid, okay. But…
Calvin Cooke:
When left the Jewell Dominion, I think, that I can remember, because we would call it “down in the hole” because we would have to go way down some steps all the way down to the building, where the steps were street level, and then we’d go all the way down and our place looked like a hole, but it was buildings down there.
Robert Stone:
Underground, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And that’s where we had church, when we left the Jewell Dominion, if my memory serves me correct.
Robert Stone:
But actually, when you first started playing, you were still in the Jewell.
Calvin Cooke:
No, I didn’t start playing until I come over here.
Robert Stone:
Oh, okay. See now we’re getting down… Because you had told me before, and I know how hard it is to nail this down, but I’m trying to get it straight.
Calvin Cooke:
Actually, I didn’t start playing, really, I had knew chords or something like that, just fooling around, but I never played in church.
Robert Stone:
Okay. So-
Calvin Cooke:
And being around guitars, just a little one, two, three, that’s all. But I wasn’t playing in church or nothing. What happened, when we moved to… When they come out of Jewell and Elder May Hodge bought that guitar, that’s when I really started.
Robert Stone:
So, that was…. Okay. Because you had told me before that your family came into the Keith Dominion in about 1958 or ’59.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, I thought it was-`
Robert Stone:
But it must have been a little earlier.
Calvin Cooke:
Come to find out, when I asked, it was 1955.
Robert Stone:
1955.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Because I went and asked, and I wanted to find out, because Ted’s family, all of our families came out at the exact same time.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And I found out and I meant to tell you that.
Robert Stone:
No, that’s why I’m getting it straight.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. It was 19… because I wrote it down and my aunt told me it was 1955, because all of us left at one time. It was a big, massive exit from Bishop Jewell.
Robert Stone:
Do you know what was behind that, by any chance?
Calvin Cooke:
I heard during that time she kept all the money, and the people wanted to progress and to do different things. The headquarters was in Cleveland. And I don’t know exactly how true it is, just hearing hearsay or whatnot. And then some people had said the Lord had told them to move, it was time to go, and whatnot. And I really don’t know the exact cause. I would hear my mother and them talk, but to really nail it down, I don’t know exactly what was the reason.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. It doesn’t really matter, just some kind of dissension.
Calvin Cooke:
All I know, I just didn’t understand why or what was going on at that time.
Robert Stone:
Sure, you were just a young fellow.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
You didn’t know all that stuff.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. And after a while I was still was wondering why, because we always still had a connection with Bishop Jewell. It was really like a big family, because every time she come in town, we was all there.
Robert Stone:
Right. Uh-huh (affirmative). Okay. Let’s see… I’m going to jump around a little bit, but, so I don’t forget it, you mentioned that, so the next guitar you got was a Fender 8-string?
Calvin Cooke:
Fender Eight.
Robert Stone:
Now, do you know when that was?
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know exactly when it was.
Robert Stone:
Well, let’s put it this way, were you still in high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
So it was before… Now, what year did you graduate? What high school did you go to?
Calvin Cooke:
Addison High School.
Robert Stone:
Addison?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Did you graduate in ’62, like I did?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Okay. And Addison was in Detroit.
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
You know what street or anything?
Calvin Cooke:
I sure don’t.
Robert Stone:
That’s all right. That’s not a big deal. Okay. So you got out in 1962.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
And so, she bought the guitar before you finished high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. So it had to… I can’t remember…
Robert Stone:
Well, that’s good enough. See, at least we established that-
Calvin Cooke:
Because I had it so long.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, Starlin still has his steel today. Mine got stolen after I lent it to one of the guys in the church.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And it took me a while to get over that. And my mother would ask about it, and I wouldn’t tell her that it was gone.
Robert Stone:
When was that?
Calvin Cooke:
It had to be about 20 years ago now.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). So early 1980s.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I would never tell her that it was gone. When she asked how it was going, I’d say it was fine. Because she spent her last, last, last… Matter of fact, all the guitars I had gotten at that time, my mother got it for me, even the MSA that I have.
Robert Stone:
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I got that story.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Pretty good. Yeah. Tell you what, I’m going to change tapes, okay. Just hang on. Bear with me a second. [Tape stops].
Robert Stone:
We’re back in business now.
Calvin Cooke:
How’s Trudy doing?
Robert Stone:
Trudy, she’s fine. She’s just fine. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
We’re doing great. Really we got a lot to be grateful for.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I know, I know.
Robert Stone:
Let’s see. Well, again, before I forget now, didn’t you wind up covering that thing in calfskin or something?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Can you tell me about that?
Calvin Cooke:
Deer skin. What happened? We were with Bishop Harrison. I can’t remember how we got this deer skin. I believe someone gave it to us.
Robert Stone:
It was an actual deer skin?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, because Starlin had his trimmed in cow hide. And I had deer skin on mine. And we had got this glue that there was somebody… I can’t remember who it was, who told us about this particular type glue. And I covered mine in deer skin. Brown deer skin.
Robert Stone:
The whole thing?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. The whole thing.
Robert Stone:
Except for the fret board, I guess.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And Starlin had his in black and white cowhide.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That was eye catching.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Now, so this was a Fender eight, three-legged?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Right.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. With the two pickups?
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Deluxe Eight.
Calvin Cooke:
Only thing I have of that is a picture of when my daughter was a baby.
Robert Stone:
Right. So you do have a picture?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. My kids have it. I can get that from them.
Robert Stone:
Well, that might be good because I can scan that in. If you could lend that to me, I’d love to scan it in.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay I’ll try to…
Robert Stone:
Is it color or black and white?
Calvin Cooke:
I think it’s color. It might be black and white. Their mother had it put up. So I’ll try to ask and try to get those pictures.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Anything Like that. Anything from the old days, Calvin.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Matter of fact, I think I had a… No, I have a old picture here. I believe my brother got it for me, with me Starlin and a guy named Walter Wooding who played piano for Bishop Keith.
Robert Stone:
I would love have it. If you could lend that to me, I’ll scan it and get it back to you.
Calvin Cooke:
All right. I’m going to look for these.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Please do.
Calvin Cooke:
And I’ll get those for you.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Anything like that’d be great.
Calvin Cooke:
You need Maynard’s telephone number?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
And you could get Starlin’s from him.
Robert Stone:
Oh, I’ve already talked to Starlin.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, okay.
Robert Stone:
Ronnie Hall.
Calvin Cooke:
I’ll get Ronnie.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, and any photos. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Let’s talk about Bishop Harrison.
Calvin Cooke:
Which one?
Robert Stone:
Henry Harrison.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
And how he came to take you on as a musician?
Calvin Cooke:
Well, I think what happened… Now that my memory really goes… He had become the Bishop of Ohio.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Since all the people come in and they contacted him. And I think the church had sent him to Ohio. And so he was the Bishop at that time of Ohio. And I never forget, he had asked my mother, could I go with him to Columbus, Georgia? So this had to be in ’58, I believe. December ’58 or ’57. December ’58. Might’ve been ’58. Asked, could we go to Columbus? Could go with him. I remember Columbus. And then I asked to go to Columbus, asked, could we go with him for the winter while we was on winter break.
Robert Stone:
Christmas vacation.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. So she let us go. Starlin Harrison, Maynard and myself went with him. First place we stopped was in Kentucky to… Oh, well, as I know the name of the place…
Robert Stone:
Oh is that Hazard?
Calvin Cooke:
Hazard, right. Thank you. Hazard, Kentucky. Because my memory slips back and forth. Hazard, Kentucky and we stayed there a day or so, played there because he was the Bishop of Kentucky.
Calvin Cooke:
Then I remember us going to Louisville. I don’t know which was first.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
I remember Hazard more so because we had friends there and we spent a lot of time with them in Hazard. That’s what makes me remember Hazard more than anything.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
It was families that we spend time with and grew up with their kids there every time we would go.
Robert Stone:
So you went there time after time?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We went into Hazard time after time. But that was the first place, I think Louisville first and then went to Hazard. Because he was stopping, checking on his churches. Then we went to Knoxville, stayed a few days and then during Christmas, they had their conventions in Georgia. The first time we had ever really been out of town and the first assembly, we were in Columbus, Georgia.
Robert Stone:
Okay. So, that was your first assembly?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. My first assembly in Columbus.
Robert Stone:
That would’ve been the Christmas of ’57 or ’58.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. We played there. I could remember Bishop Fletcher, Harrison, Bishop Keith, and it was another Bishop named Bishop Stakely.
Robert Stone:
Right. Lovey Stakely.
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. That was a relative of Willie’s.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. She was there because she lived in Americus.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. That’s where he was born over by there.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. When she lived there in Americus because we go by and see her all the time. And I think another Bishop, Bishop Golden, but he was sickly so he didn’t attend. We always would stop and see him in Fitzgerald, Georgia. He was sickly and up in age at that time.
Robert Stone:
So, in other words, by 1957… Let’s say it was ’57. Whether it’s ’57 or ’58 is not real important. You were only 13 years old. You had really just gotten your steel.
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
But you were already good enough to play.
Calvin Cooke:
I guess Bishop Harrison felt that he wanted us to go with him and I guess he saw something in us and he felt we were good enough to be with him, I guess.
Robert Stone:
Now, he was a steel player himself, right?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. He played in the style that Willie Eason play in.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
He didn’t play when we played. Matter of fact, he just wanted a set of musicians to work with him and play for him.
Robert Stone:
So he was already phasing himself out of being a steel player?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. Because he had a old guitar. I don’t know the name of it. He played.
Robert Stone:
You’ve seen that old photo. He’s the guy in that old photo.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
That was a Kay guitar in that photo.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I’d never seen it.
Robert Stone:
With the stair step sides.
Calvin Cooke:
He would play with us a little bit at the house or show us how they used to play. To us it was old stuff because Maynard and I had grew up around Lorenzo’s sound and that’s the style we had started playing.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And that’s the style of Starlin Harrison like.
Robert Stone:
If you had to tell somebody who didn’t know, how would you describe the difference between Harrison style and Lorenzo Harrison style and Henry Harrison style?
Calvin Cooke:
It was totally, totally different.
Robert Stone:
Well try and describe it a little bit.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, Lorenzo, to us was, was more… How would I put it? With the generational time. He was a smooth type player. He kept tunes, different type tunes going. He was very innovative in playing how he played with the band he had. They always played something different that would catch your eye. Henry Harrison played more on a Hawaiian type style. He played just about the same way all the time or the same type of music. What they believed in on the Keith side or Henry Harrison, you play the exact song and that’s what you play. Where Lorenzo would play the song, but he would play it more with a push or a pop. Or something that would catch you to make you listen to it and pay attention to it. A jazz, blues, something that would really get you. But he played with a lot of feeling and a lot of heart. Henry Harrison played with a lot of heart, but their music was more Hawaiian type style and it wasn’t as catchy as Lorenzo’s was.
Robert Stone:
So it’s pretty straight up.
Calvin Cooke:
Straight up. Yeah. Both of them was different as night and day.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So Harrison stayed to the melody a lot.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Played the song pretty straight.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he played the song. Matter of fact, his son Henry Jr., Henry Harrison’s son, Junior played the exact same way as he did. He didn’t like our style or Lorenzo style.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It sounds like Starlin doesn’t like it that much either.
Calvin Cooke:
No, Starlin didn’t fool with- Starlin played Lorenzo type. That’s what he was into.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
He was crazy about his uncle style.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Okay. Now Lorenzo, also, he, like you say, in the stuff that I’ve heard, he played a lot like boogie woogie, sort of shuffles.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. Right.
Robert Stone:
And jazz.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. Right. That’s what he was into.
Robert Stone:
When did he first out start that… Did you hear him do the stuff with a wah pedal? Was he doing that yet back then?
Calvin Cooke:
No, back then Lorenzo played straight guitar. I mean straight steel for a long time. And then when they started putting echo in the amps, he was the first that we could remember. He always was in position where he could get things that were new. And he had got that and he played that in church one time. And that was one of the biggest things we ever heard in our life.
Robert Stone:
No, I remember those days.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Reverb, of course they cranked it up all the way too.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. When he put that echo on, it’s just like, “Whoa, man, did you hear Lorenzo?” When he brought that out it just blew us away. And then after, later on down the line, I don’t know what year or when he started the wah box. Then he started playing with that and I think he played with that until his death.
Robert Stone:
Right. He really stuck with that.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he really stuck with that. Ran that. And today that’s what they do now. But before then, it was just… Matter of fact, Harvey Jones is the guy who played lead for Lorenzo. And the way the guys play now, that’s exactly where it comes from on the lead guitar.
Robert Stone:
Is he still alive?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. Harvey Jones, as far as I know is still alive.
Robert Stone:
Can you get his number?
Calvin Cooke:
Well, I could try. I don’t know if I could.
Robert Stone:
Or maybe Jay can get it.
Calvin Cooke:
He don’t belong to Jewell anymore. He’s been gone. He went with one of my uncles and their churches. Matter of fact, I’ll try to seek around.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
See if I can get Harvey’s number some kind of way.
Robert Stone:
Do you know where he is?
Calvin Cooke:
Kansas city.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. His daughter lives in Detroit. He has a daughter. I hadn’t seen her in a long time.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kansas city, Kansas. Well, that’d be great to talk because he played with Lorenzo for quite a while.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, yeah. And matter of fact, Corroneva Burns is the guy who played the bass. He’s about 80, in his 80s now.
Robert Stone:
Corroneva?
Calvin Cooke:
Corroneva Burns.
Robert Stone:
C-O-R-N-I-V-A?
Calvin Cooke:
What is it, Grace? Played the drums.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, all the guys who played drums now played pattern after him.
Robert Stone:
Right. Well now Laban Burns… Laban, I guess you would call him is his son, I guess.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And he’s the guy that when we recorded Sonny Treadway at the Jewell Dominion Church at Deerfield Beach, he was playing the drums.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, okay. His father has been the original drummer of the Jewell Dominion ever since I can remember.
Robert Stone:
Great. Yeah because they got it a little bit different way.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Mostly they don’t play as hard.
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, no, no. They don’t.
Robert Stone:
They lay back.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. They lay back and just make that beat. And Lorenzo and Harvey would do the work back then.
Robert Stone:
And they pretty much, at least the little bit I’ve heard, quite often they pick up the tempo, the longer they play the faster it gets.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Actually they used to go the tempo we went back when I was coming up.
Robert Stone:
In the Jewell Dominion?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Then later on, as time went and progressed, they started adapting a real slow tempo. So they used to would go the tempo that the Keith Dominion had.
Robert Stone:
But Harrison got into the slower…
Calvin Cooke:
Later on, the older he got, he changed a lot of things and he started going at a slower tempo. There were times he would still pick it up but he started changing the tempo. And the people had learned to react to whatever he did.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And however they played. So, that’s how that come about.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Okay. Got that. We got your high school. We got what year. Oh, do you remember what states that Bishop Harrison was over?
Calvin Cooke:
Ohio, Kentucky and Georgia.
Robert Stone:
Not Tennessee?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. That’s right. Tennessee, because we were in Knoxville. He was over in Tennessee. That’s right. Knoxville.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Oh, I know one question I had. Something that I learned recently is that… Do you remember Bishop Jewell?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Describe her to me because she’s been described as a big woman. Can you kind of describe her physically and also just her personality?
Calvin Cooke:
She was a big, tall woman.
Robert Stone:
But how big?
Calvin Cooke:
I think she was seven feet.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
She was very tall to us. Very tall. Coming up, she was a very powerful lady. Matter of fact, she was a very, very good dominant speaker when it comes to preaching and God and her church at the time that I can remember when we were there. And matter of fact, she always remembered who you were. No matter how old she got. She always remembered who you were. And she was a strong lady, had a strong hand on the church during the old days. And even though we had left, we still spent a lot of time with her because when we would go to Nashville for the Keith, get ready for the general assembly there. Bishop Harrison always would go early so he could spend time with Lorenzo and his other brother, Elder Harrison, out of Miami. And then all three of them would be together all the time. Maynard, Starlin and I would go and…
Robert Stone:
Where would you go? You go to where?
Calvin Cooke:
They stayed behind. I don’t know the name of that street.
Robert Stone:
But what town?
Calvin Cooke:
In Nashville.
Robert Stone:
So you go to Nashville early?
Calvin Cooke:
We would go to Nashville early.
Robert Stone:
And you meet up with the Harrisons?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, we meet up with them. Bishop Harrison. And they would have pre-planning or whatever with Bishop Keith. And we would get there, Bishop Jewell’s assembly would be going on.
Robert Stone:
Okay. So the Jewell assembly was already going on?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Her assembly was already going on and we would meet with them. Our assembly would start that next Wednesday. Bishop Jewell’s would end that Sunday. And we would get there maybe Thursday during their assembly and we would go over to their assembly because half our family was still over there.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And during the daytime, we would attend the service. We still felt a part of them.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And then in the evening, sometimes Lorenzo come and get us. And Bishop Jewell would ask, what do we want for dinner? And we’d go over there, the boys. We would go, especially me and Maynard, we’d go over there and eat dinner with them. They lived right behind Heiman street. I don’t know the name of that street at that time, but now it’s a highway back there. And we would go over there and spend time with Bishop Jewell and eat dinner with her.
Robert Stone:
So, she had a home there?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, they had about three or four homes back there. And people lived there who were members of the church.
Robert Stone:
Right. Right.
Calvin Cooke:
So actually we all was still like a family and then Lorenzo and his brothers would get together and eat and be together.
Robert Stone:
And their assembly was right down the street from the Keith Dominion…
Calvin Cooke:
Next door.
Robert Stone:
Right next door. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Right. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
They had a building there.
Robert Stone:
So now when was this going on? Where are we in time? What years?
Calvin Cooke:
It had to be in the ’50s.
Robert Stone:
Okay. So this was before you were out of high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. In the ’60s. I’m not sure exactly, but it had to be up until the ’60s. About ’62 or something like that because Bishop Jewell and them, they moved, they left because they had had a big court battle over the land.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Where they had to share that, split the land or something like that.
Robert Stone:
Right, right.
Calvin Cooke:
Make a move. I don’t know exactly… During Bishop Jenkins time…
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
They had to move. But during my younger days, I know we went over there because I had cousins and aunts who still were over there in the Jewell Dominion. And so we attend service there like we were attending our own. To us, it was still a part of us.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Because when I would go, I still had to sing and be part of the program of there because that’s where they started making me sing over at Jewell.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
And when I was a little boy, and then when I would come around, then she would request that I sing a song. And I would go on and sing even though we could be down there for her assembly. We was just visitors. She never treated us that way.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.
Calvin Cooke:
She’d always tells us that our parents had no business taking us away.
Robert Stone:
So you had pretty nice memories of Bishop Jewell.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Now, is she a heavy woman, as well as being tall?
Calvin Cooke:
For her size, she was… She wasn’t real fat, but for her size, she was a big woman.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
For her size because it matched her size.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
You know?
Robert Stone:
More like a football player.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Just big.
Calvin Cooke:
She was tall, but her weight matched size.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So she was the size of Phil Campbell or something.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. Yeah. She was like that.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
She was a big, tall woman.
Robert Stone:
I heard somebody told me that she had to wear a men’s shoes.
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know.
Robert Stone:
She was so big, you know?
Calvin Cooke:
I know she was a big woman. I don’t know about that. I didn’t pay that attention.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
But she always was a good dresser, wore fine clothes whenever you saw her. And except when we’d go to the house.
Robert Stone:
Sure.
Calvin Cooke:
On a regular… Without church.
Robert Stone:
Sure.
Calvin Cooke:
And she was a regular person and a lot of people was fearful of her because she was such a dominant way. But my memory, she liked laughing and talking and she remembered you. She remembered us all the way up until her death. Remembered who you was. She remembered the generations, what generation you come from and she remembered your generation way back. She could tell you who all she could remember.
Robert Stone:
And about when did she die?
Calvin Cooke:
I believe it was ’91 when she died. Lorenzo died before she did.
Robert Stone:
So I just missed her.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. She died in ’91. Lorenzo had died, I think a couple of years before her. He had kidney problems.
Robert Stone:
Now Lorenzo’s position was what? Do you know what his title was?
Calvin Cooke:
He was the assistant overseer.
Robert Stone:
Assistant overseer.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
He had became the assistant. She appointed him as the assistant. He had been with her ever since a teenager.
Robert Stone:
Right. Yeah. Matter of fact-
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, I have a… I don’t know where it is. I’m fixing to look for it. Grace moves stuff. When she moves stuff, I’m in trouble. I have it here. They have a calendar talking about a hundred years and Bob, it’s so much information in there. I don’t know how you could get one. It showed how Bishop Jewell, which I didn’t know this, was raised by Mother Tate.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. How could I get one?
Calvin Cooke:
I didn’t know. Check- Let’s see.
Robert Stone:
Because Bishop Manning’s of course is gone now.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Do you hear from Alvin and them?
Robert Stone:
Sure.
Calvin Cooke:
See if Alvin and them could get you one some kind of way.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Because he’s got family.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. See If they could find out how to get you this. Or either my cousin, Terry. Well, see if Alvin can get you one.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
And in the meantime, I’ll try to check with my cousin.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Or maybe even Jay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Jay probably won’t because Jay with me all the time now and they church is just about just messed up here in Detroit. And Jay’s over here, but he may can, and matter of fact, I asked him-
Robert Stone:
I talk to Alvin all the time.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, you might be able, if you can’t, I’ll try to get in touch with my cousin, Terry. And matter of fact, I have a lot of information about and pictures with Bishop Jewell…
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, my mother and the church congregation is here in Cleveland, Ohio in 1940.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Looking at it now. And it has pictures of him in there.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
My mother’s in there. I got her in there when she was a girl. And then, you get an idea. It’s got Bishop Jewell and one of her husbands. Bishop Jewell, him and then her first husband, Bishop McLeod, who was the leader of the church before she came in.
Robert Stone:
Right. Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. And this would really help you.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, man.
Calvin Cooke:
And then it has a picture of the old church in Cleveland and the house. I think this is the house that Bishop Jewell lived in there. And then one of my uncles is in there. Most of these people. Then Lorenzo when he was a young boy is in this. And most of these people now dead.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
A few of them are still living because I just saw some of them. And I’m going through it.
Calvin Cooke:
And then you got an old picture in 1961 when Bishop Jewell had her academy.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Jewell Academy and whatnot. So I’m going to try to do that sometime today. And then you got where Lorenzo, his ex wife, Nettie Mae, and it tells you different things on him that would might help you answer your questions, where it said Bishop Harrison became Chief Jewell first vice-president in 1955. I know that.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
He was the church key man in many respects.
Robert Stone:
Right. Hang on a second. I’m going to change tapes.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Okay. I’m back. Well, that’ll be great. I got to get one of them, no doubt about that.
Calvin Cooke:
Now, Lorenzo died in 1986, December 26th 1986.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
That’s when he died. I’m looking at it right here. Plus it has all the different information on here…
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative)?
Calvin Cooke:
On this thing. I’m going to try to call Terry’s mother today.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Have Terry… Then he’s got the Jewell Gospel Trio on here. Paul [crosstalk 00:00:33], Candi Staton. Got the old bus that they traveled in.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And it’s got a picture of the Jewell Trio when they started. Matter of fact, there’s a picture here of Lorenzo, the guy on drums, and then Harvey.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative)?
Calvin Cooke:
When they had the band going.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative)? Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
Let’s see. Well, Grace trying to look down and see if a contact number on there. You might…
Robert Stone:
Be able to contact the church.
Calvin Cooke:
The church and get one. I was trying to… She’s looking on that now and see.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Well, while she’s looking, maybe we’ll just keep talking here.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Let’s see. Oh, tell me about Bishop Henry Harrison about his… He was a carpenter, is that right?
Calvin Cooke:
He was a carpenter by trade, and a lot of places we would go, he would fix churches or build churches, be the one who helped build the churches. And we worked during the daytime, not only just in his diocese, but in Florida. We would go and fix roofs.
Robert Stone:
You mean not House of God, other churches?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Well, they would be House of God, but not in his diocese.
Robert Stone:
Okay, just outside his diocese.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, for his brother.
Robert Stone:
And you worked with him?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. He would have us carrying bricks, making mortar and doing stuff like that during the daytime. And then at night, if he was on a revival, we would play. But then during the daytime, we worked so many hours helping him out. He had a crew working with him, but we’d go and help him and work with him anyways.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And carry the stuff, make the mortar, carry the bricks, clean up and do all this stuff like that. Back then, where they needed it… Back then, they would call him in to come and fix the church up. We’d go and do that, help him, just do little odds and ends.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And different things. We would complain though.
Robert Stone:
I’m sure. You were teenagers. You’re supposed to complain if you’re a teenager.
Calvin Cooke:
We didn’t really want to do it. Actually, he taught us work basics and about getting up and doing things, we really learned. Actually, we wound up living with them because we loved being with them so much. And actually, after my father died, he was actually my father because his wife treated me like I was the baby boy. And a lot of people thought I was actually his son, his baby son. And that’s the way they treated us. And I wound up leaving the home, living with them and staying with them for a long while. And it doesn’t have a contact number. I’ll try to call and get the information for you.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Give me a few days.
Robert Stone:
Sure, sure. Okay. I’ll work on Alvin too.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Being with him, that’s how I got to know… Well, I’ve been with Alvin and them ever since they were babies. I was there when they were little kids because we would go and stay every year in Miami, because he’d go stay with his brother every year for years during the winter time. From January, we’d be there to about April.
Robert Stone:
That was Marshall Harrison.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We stayed with him till about April and then we’ll leave. And that’s when I come out of school and we would leave and start going and traveling. Then when I come out of school, winter breaks, I would go down there and be with them. Back then, we’d catch the bus. We wouldn’t know nothing about flying. We called Trailways or Greyhound and go down there and stay for the winter vacation and [crosstalk 00:05:12]
Robert Stone:
Oh, so you take a Trailways or a Greyhound from…
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
By then you were in Detroit.
Calvin Cooke:
Right… No, no, no, no.
Robert Stone:
No, not yet.
Calvin Cooke:
Still in Cleveland.
Robert Stone:
Still in Cleveland.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
From Cleveland all the way to what? Miami?
Calvin Cooke:
All the way to Miami.
Robert Stone:
Oh man.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Well, I liked it and they had become my family, and I had been with them so long until… because his sisters was living there. All the Harrison sisters were living there and they lived in different parts of Florida, and they all would congregate there in Miami.
Robert Stone:
So Lorenzo’s wife’s name was Nettie Mae?
Calvin Cooke:
On of them. He was married about four or five times.
Robert Stone:
Oh, okay.
Calvin Cooke:
That was Naomi’s mother. She’s still living.
Robert Stone:
Nettie Mae?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Oh really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. She’s still living. She lives in California.
Robert Stone:
Okay. And she must’ve been his first- one of his first wives.
Calvin Cooke:
She was his first wife.
Robert Stone:
His first wife? Because Henry Nelson’s sister…
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Mary Linzy…
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
She told me this story about how Lorenzo and Nettie Mae met down in Ocala at Bishop Jewell’s church.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-huh (affirmative) She was the first wife, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
She was the first that I can remember. Another one, let’s see, a couple of more he had, but the one lady he married in Toledo. She’s not with the Jewell Dominion anymore, she left them. I can’t think of her name now. I know her well, but I hadn’t seen her anymore because when Bishop Manning come in, she left, and she used to be the spokesman for Bishop Jewell.
Robert Stone:
I see.
Calvin Cooke:
And then a couple of other ladies that he married, I think they’re dead now. So he had quite a few women there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Let’s see. When you were talking about your tuning that came to you and Harrison told you to put it on your guitar, then at one point you say, “And that night I went to service and I told the guys I had a new tuning they never heard it before.” Now, those guys, that would have been Maynard and Starlin?
Calvin Cooke:
Maynard and Starlin.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay. Can we nail that year down? You said you were in Augusta, Georgia.
Calvin Cooke:
We were in Augusta Georgia.
Robert Stone:
Working on a church.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, we was working on a church. I don’t know exactly what year that was. I would- [crosstalk 00:08:04]
Robert Stone:
Okay, let’s start with this. Were you still in high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. I think it had to be… Matter of fact, it had to be during the… It was in the ’60s, I know. Now, what year?
Robert Stone:
Well, if you weren’t out of high school yet, it would have been…
Calvin Cooke:
No, it was in the ’60s.
Robert Stone:
’60, ’61,’62.
Calvin Cooke:
It should be between ’61. ’60 or ’61.
Robert Stone:
I see.
Calvin Cooke:
It could be between ’60 or ’61.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, that’s pretty good. So early 1960s, for sure.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, early ’60s.
Robert Stone:
If you graduated in ’62.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We stayed at this lady’s house because she stayed… I can’t think of her name but we stayed in the projects there in Augusta, Georgia.
Robert Stone:
Okay, good. We’re getting somewhere.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. It’s hot during the summertime. So it had to be- [crosstalk 00:09:28].
Robert Stone:
Hey, you’re telling me man, I’m in the middle of it.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. It’s been pretty hot here for us. It had to be between July and August, or during that time. It might’ve been in July because we started moving out in August working our way up, having assembly up in Cleveland in August. So it had to be somewhere in July. I’m just speculating.
Robert Stone:
Fine. No, this is how you do it.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I’m just speculating on that. And that- [crosstalk 00:10:06]
Robert Stone:
So you wouldn’t have been that far south.
Calvin Cooke:
No, because- [crosstalk 00:10:10].
Robert Stone:
You would be working your back north?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Working our way back then, I remember when I got up that morning and we were having service that night, and told Bishop Harrison about that, how clear it was because we played in the Lorenzo tuning which the guitar is still tuned into the Lorenzo tuning, except that one string.
Robert Stone:
Right, that’s seventh.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. That same thing.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And when I heard the tuning, or tuning it that way, I was wondering how I was going to make it or what happened? And Bishop Harrison said, “You go ahead on,” and they believed if God gave it to you and you go to service that night, and if the people react or dance, then that’s something God gave you, and this is what happened. We went to church that night and I messed around with that during that day, and it had become so different. And when we went to service, it looked like the spirit really came in and that was it. And I’ve been playing that ever since. So that’s got to be a good 30 something years.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, right, right.
Calvin Cooke:
Or close to 40-
Robert Stone:
40 now.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, 40 years. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Great.
Calvin Cooke:
Nobody else had that tuning. Nobody else has had it.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative) Okay. I’m not wearing you out, am I?
Calvin Cooke:
No. No.
Robert Stone:
Okay, good. This is because we’re getting somewhere, this is good.
Calvin Cooke:
Starlin and them or Maynard might tell you some different things or whatever. And when you talk to him, he’s cocky and he’s always been like that. So you have to listen at him.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
And he almost making you want to hang up. But if you listen at him- as far as maybe he could remember, but Starlin can remember. He’s pretty good I think.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
And he can help you even more, but mainly, he’s kind of cocky when it comes to talking to him.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
He’s always been like that ever since we were kids.
Robert Stone:
All right. I appreciate the heads up on that.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. So yes, be aware and just listen at him, and…
Robert Stone:
Okay. I remember now, another thing I wanted to talk about. You’ve told me before, but I want to get you to say it again, is that when you traveled with… Well, even with Harrison, but I know you mentioned about with Bishop Keith, that you listened to the radio.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Tell me about what they would let you listen to and what they wouldn’t let you listen to?
Calvin Cooke:
Well, what happened was back then, they traveled… The shows I remember, they would have a lot of gospel on first. You remember Randy?
Robert Stone:
Yeah, WLAC?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Back then, he would play a lot of different stuff but then a certain time of the morning, he would play that old time gospel like Franklin and all the big top Black gospel groups back then.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And then after that go off, well before Randy come on, early in the morning, they had this station that come out of West Virginia. I can’t think of the name of it.
Robert Stone:
Probably WWVA. Wheeling West Virginia?
Calvin Cooke:
Wheeling, that’s it.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s it. And they would have the gospel come on, where all the White gospel would come on.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And we listened to that and they catch that every time. And then they just had strictly AM radio back then.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Then after those things go off, wasn’t much for us to listen to, but the news or them talking and they knew exactly when to turn the radio on because they knew exactly when those particular programs came on, and that’s all we would listen to.
Robert Stone:
So you weren’t allowed to listen to any R&B or Blues?
Calvin Cooke:
No, they didn’t listen to none of that, and we didn’t listen to it, and we weren’t used to it. But then after I got older and we’re coming home, I always liked listening at the Grand Ole Opry, So I listened to that all the time.
Robert Stone:
What did you like about that?
Calvin Cooke:
I just liked the steel music in it.
Robert Stone:
The steel, Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And then after listening to the steel music, I started liking the Louvin Brothers and different people that I started picking that I really liked, and became a country fan. So I’ve really been in the country music all my life, and Minnie Pearl and the Louvin Brothers. Back then, Ferlin Husky, Skeeter Davis, this guy, I can’t think of his name, The Browns. And I remember them because they were very popular back then. The Louvin Brothers were my favorite band.
Robert Stone:
Did you go so far as to buy records of these?
Calvin Cooke:
No, I never did. I would only listen at the Grand Ole Opry, and then they had Ernest Tubb come on. I listened to his show because the guy, he always called his name out on Leon or whatever. And the guy that played the steel and the guy who played the lead guitar for him. I started listening to his show.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. He had good steel players.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. He came on Saturdays too, and I would do that at home because being interested in the steel, and then one of my cousins came over and started introducing me to other types of music where this group, Yes, you ever heard of them?
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
When they came out, we were all about the same age. And when they first started, then my cousin introduced me to them and I started listening at them, and then I started getting into other music. But I wouldn’t do it around them.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Because I give them that respect when I was by myself.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Or I was traveling on the bus because back then Greyhound… Not Greyhound, but Trailways had already developed where they had a radio on the bus, on your seat, and you just plug into it.
Robert Stone:
With headphones?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, headphones. And they were the only ones who had that.
Robert Stone:
So that was back in the ’60s, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. Then you listened to whatever you wanted to, all the way down, just AM all the way down to wherever you was going to. And Trailways was advanced, much more advanced than Greyhound back during those days. They just didn’t get the people like Greyhound did.
Robert Stone:
Right. They didn’t have the advertising.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. But they were a better bus, better seats and everything.
Robert Stone:
Interesting.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
I never rode the buses too much. That’s a slow way to go.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Well, I was used to it. And then, that’s all we knew back then. And a lot of times they would send me to the assemblies where Bishop Harrison couldn’t come right away. Bishop Keith couldn’t go right away and Maynard and Starlin were drafted into the army and they would send me to certain spots.
Robert Stone:
Back then, when you were on that bus, when you got in the south, did you have to do the back of the bus thing?
Calvin Cooke:
No.
Robert Stone:
No?
Calvin Cooke:
I didn’t have that problem. No, I didn’t have that problem. I could sit anywhere I wanted to.
Robert Stone:
Interesting.
Calvin Cooke:
I’ve never had that problem. I don’t remember any incidents all the years. The only incident I remember is when we went to Bessemer, Alabama, I believe it was. And we wanted ice cream, and we couldn’t understand why we couldn’t get it at the front. We had to go to the back. And that’s what I really learned about people being prejudiced because we didn’t really encounter it, because everybody had really been good to us and nice to us. Back then, they had the five and 10 cent stores and they waited on us and everything. And that’s the only time I really encountered that, when the lady told us that I’m so sorry that you couldn’t get it there. You had to go to the back and she apologized. That’s the only time I remembered when that happened.
Robert Stone:
I’ll be doggone. Bessemer, Alabama. Yeah. Well, Alabama.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, but it’s so different now going down there, I couldn’t believe it.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
But I understand, that’s the only incident then Bishop Harrison start explaining to us that it wasn’t the same for everybody. Don’t do this and don’t… Because we were wild and we would fuss, “Why we have to do this?” He explained it to us.
Robert Stone:
You weren’t used to that?
Calvin Cooke:
No, we weren’t used to that. No, from where we come from, we never encountered it.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, we never didn’t know this existed because they never taught that in the church, or we never lived with it.
Robert Stone:
So was it kind of a surprise to you?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, it was. It was like a…
Robert Stone:
You remember how old you were when that happened in Bessemer?
Calvin Cooke:
No, I don’t.
Robert Stone:
Were you still in high school?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, we were still teenagers. We were still teenagers when that happened.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Matter of fact, we have some to… I want to say we was playing a tent revival doing that, but I’m not sure.
Robert Stone:
That’s good enough. Yeah. This all helps kind of paint a picture of what your whole life was like and what things that were going on. Because we’ve got to talk about more than just playing the steel.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
To keep this interesting and bring it to life.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, matter of fact, traveling with them, it was like a family, the whole church, because you could stay with who you want to wherever you wanted to. And we stayed with the same families and we all grew up together, like the Jacksons out of Willacoochee.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
We stayed with them and I kind of grew up with them, ran around with them, and it was like a family, each stop we went to, it was like a close knitted family. Matter of fact, the whole church.
Robert Stone:
And what’s that guy who’s active today?
Calvin Cooke:
Huh?
Robert Stone:
With the Jacksons? Troy.
Calvin Cooke:
Jacksons. Yeah, Troy.
Robert Stone:
Troy, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. His father, his grandmother, all of them. Matter of fact, all of them have seen me ever since we all were teenagers together, children together, coming up. Matter of fact, all the older ones like Grace uncles, Grace, what’s your uncle’s name? Henry Dillard.
Robert Stone:
Oh really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Henry Dillard. He used to play, all those guys used to play. And when I come along, they started slowing it up from playing. So they watched me come up from a kid.
Robert Stone:
Henry Dillard is Grace’s uncle?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. That’s her mother’s brother. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Well, I’m not surprised.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. That’s her mother’s brother. So that’s my uncle.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. So all of these older bishops, matter of fact, all of them.
Robert Stone:
I can see it now because you know, you know, Bishop Dillard has got a real, pretty daughter.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And she looks like Grace.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
I can see her face now.
Calvin Cooke:
They’re first cousins.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, right. I hear you now.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. They all are kin.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s all her family. Ever since I was a kid, all the older ones have watched me grow up in this church from a child, from a teenager, to where I am today.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
So that means I know about four or five generations of families.
Robert Stone:
Now how about traveling with Bishop Keith?
Calvin Cooke:
Traveling with her was a spiritual experience, very much so because we got a chance to see a lot of different miracles where…
Robert Stone:
Tell me about some?
Calvin Cooke:
Talking about first, different kids who weren’t able to go home or didn’t have much of a home to go home to. She spent all the money. She had a school and when they didn’t go home, she had this bus and would feed all of them and put them on the bus, and have a bus to come to the conventions wherever we were playing down south during the holiday. And even though some could have went home, they didn’t want to go. They wanted to stay with her and be with us and go to the convention. So it’d be a bus for the kids and people would cook and she would help provide the food and a place to stay for them. And then there were several people who had different diseases that they said the doctors couldn’t heal. And after they stayed with Bishop Keith for a few days or a while, and she fasted and prayed and stayed with them, they didn’t seem to have that problem anymore. One, especially I remember was she was from Chicago. She wound up becoming one of the biggest financial ladies in the church. Oh goodness. What was her name? And I knew her well, her mother lived in Chicago and Bishop Keith took her because she was very sick, and educated her and paid for her college. Shuford, Debbie Shuford.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And she was sick, had some kind of disease. And they would always call her names and look at her, and call her ugly duckling or different names behind her back. She wound up getting educated. Bishop Keith took her, raised her the rest of the way. She still went home, be with her family. But she fell in love with being with Bishop Keith, and Bishop Keith sent her to college. And she became one of the financial wizards of the church and one of the most educated persons that we had, and a dominant figure in this church. And that was one example. Then a lot of people who had different sickness in their home, wherever they were living, they would call her 24 hours. And she spent time with them on the phone or a different… She said, “We’d be there at such and such a time.” We’d be leaving out. We would go to the different States and the different people come and we tell them about their problems, and look like she would take that problem onto herself. And she did a lot of fasting, a lot of… Wait a minute, Grace, then Bishop Keith, somebody in y’all’s family, Dale or somebody, Bishop Keith had prayed for y’all and a miracle had happened. Grace’s brother, what had happened? He had a high fever.
Robert Stone:
Dale Hines?
Calvin Cooke:
No, no. Her oldest brother, Freddie. His name is Freddie Hines. And he had a… Go ahead.
Grace:
He had a real high fever and the doctors couldn’t get it down.
Calvin Cooke:
They had a real high fever and the doctors couldn’t get it down, and said it was going to damage his brain. And a Grace’s mother called Bishop Keith, and she prayed for him on the phone. And then the next day, the whole fever broke and they couldn’t find nothing wrong with him. And that was one of the incidents because I remember her mother mentioning that.
Calvin Cooke:
Things like this, this is what happened. Then back then, when we would play in church, people would get saved, just being in the service with her. And her eyes, she had some strange eyes. When you look at her, you couldn’t look her straight in the eye because it seemed like she knew all about you plus what they would call now. What’d they call these people could tell you fortune?
Robert Stone:
Psychics.
Calvin Cooke:
Psychics. She had that ability that she could tell you things, and I’ve seen her do that and talk to people. And I remember too, we would be in church for hours when they have the prayer line. She would sit there right in the middle of the church and people come and kneel and she would pray for them and they would fall out, and whatever the condition was, they would testify that different things had happened and that it went away. Or if something was going on at home, she really didn’t know about, or she come up and they would tell her to pray for him. And she really didn’t know, she would pray on a certain thing, and they wanted to know, “How did she know?” And different things. And I know the experience with me one time… I was fooling around with all these girls. ‘Cause …
Robert Stone:
Can you hang on while I change tapes?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Try to- [inaudible 00:00:02].
Robert Stone:
Well, actually I called Worthem right away.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
And he said, no, he’s not in Mississippi. He said his brother was there for awhile, but he moved back to Cleveland.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, okay.
Robert Stone:
His brother Robbie, I think he said.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. So…
Calvin Cooke:
I thought he was in Mississippi.
Robert Stone:
No. So yeah, if you can find somebody at the, when you go to that funeral, that’d be great.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Actually, let me see what I got here. I just was looking for people by the name of Golden in Cleveland on the web, on the phone book, on the internet.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And there’s, one of them that caught me was, there’s a reverend.
Calvin Cooke:
He died.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
If it’s the same one, it was their oldest brother.
Robert Stone:
Okay. It was, let me see the next page.
Calvin Cooke:
Alvin?
Robert Stone:
One more. Joseph.
Calvin Cooke:
Joseph?
Robert Stone:
Now it could have been another family but it was a Reverend Joseph Golden.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
There’s a Kevin, Robert.
Calvin Cooke:
The other one lived here in Detroit.
Robert Stone:
You think Robert might, I wonder if Robert is this guy Robbie.
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know. All I knew was Alvin. The oldest brother was Alvin Golden.
Robert Stone:
But that’s the one you said died, right?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. He lived here in Detroit. He was one of the oldest brothers.
Robert Stone:
Oh, okay. Now I’m looking for-
Calvin Cooke:
Not but one left now and that’s Freddy, the baby boy.
Robert Stone:
Freddy?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And he’s the baby. He’s somewhere in Cleveland with his mother. Where, I don’t know.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Once in a while I see him.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Well, anyhow, if you can help me out there, I’d appreciate it.
Calvin Cooke:
I’ll see if Jake would have any information. He stays pretty close to everybody in the church there.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And he might would know.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Well actually, what else can you tell me about Tubby, about his playing and all that?
Calvin Cooke:
When I was with Tubby and them, he played in Cleveland for a long, well, ever since I can remember. Him and his brother was a team called Bobby and Tubby.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And Tubby played lead guitar. I mean, Bobby played lead guitar.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
All right. Tubby played the steel.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And both of them were married to two sisters, which was my cousins.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Bobby was married to Joan and Tubby was married to Jeannette.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
But then they divorced and whatnot, but they remained good friends. And until he died, Tubby’s last wife, I can’t remember where she is now. She used to be a member of the church. I don’t think she still is, still around now.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. According to… Let’s see, played at the… Yeah. The Cleveland, Ohio…
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
He played at the Cleveland, Ohio, church.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Those two.
Robert Stone:
So how did he play? Did he play like Harrison? In this pic-
Calvin Cooke:
Kind of similar, but he had his different style. But normally, but most of the time it was like Lorenzo.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
It was close to Lorenzo, the style was. Different little changes. He had pedals, but he never really used them.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
He just had them for show. Yeah. That’s about all. Because those guys was never really quick to learn pedals over there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well they just, it doesn’t fit in their sound, I guess.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-uh (negative).
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
They just now starting to try to tinker with it.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Just now starting to tinker with it. And mess with it. And they have it for show, but they don’t really do anything with the pedals.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
At all.
Robert Stone:
And it shows them at… It’s not a real clear photo, but it’s pretty clear that he’s using one of those big Morley rotary wahs.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. That’s what he… Back in those days, that’s what they had. Those huge Morleys. Back then. That’s what they used. Some of them who got them still use them.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Right. No, I’ve seen them. Pretty much. I think I’ve seen just about all the steel players in Mississippi.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
In my two trips out there, and I’ve seen about five different players and…
Calvin Cooke:
They have one.
Robert Stone:
They all use a wah. Some of them have the old Morley. Some of them don’t.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And some of them got them, but they’re broken.
Calvin Cooke:
They’re hard to find now.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
They’re hard to find.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I found a beautiful one and sold it to the Lee boys.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
It was just like new.
Calvin Cooke:
They still use it?
Robert Stone:
Well, they’re real impractical to take on the road.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
They figured that out right away.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, goodness. They’re huge.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. They’re 16 inches long.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. They’re bulky and…
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Huge.
Robert Stone:
But they have a unique sound, I guess.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. They do.
Robert Stone:
You never got into that, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
No, because I didn’t want to sound exactly like them.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And I wanted to keep what we had where we was. Because that identified who we were.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And then after I started playing pedals, my sound changed completely…
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
…with experimenting with the pedal. So that created a different thing for us. Matter of fact, a lot of us was more creative anyway.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
With different sounds.
Robert Stone:
Right. Right. Those Jewell guys, pretty much…
Calvin Cooke:
They pretty much stay exactly to the same. Like Ronnie, he still play the exact same thing. All the guys that I still hear play today, they play in exactly the same way as they was when they learned.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
No change, really.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
They say there’s a difference, but I can’t tell it. Because all of them sound just alike to me.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
But they can make the distinction. I can’t.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. It’s pretty subtle.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. All of them sound exactly alike.
Robert Stone:
I know what you’re saying. They sure sound similar.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. They sound so similar to… I really can’t tell.
Robert Stone:
And I don’t think there’s anybody in the state of Mississippi that uses pedals.
Calvin Cooke:
No.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Not that I’ve seen.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Not a one.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Not a one. I think they might be afraid of them and don’t want to turn loose that sound.
Robert Stone:
Well, like I said, as long as they’re going to play the way that they play, they don’t need them.
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, no. They don’t. No. No, they don’t bother with it. They test them now. They got some. But they just tinkering around with them to try to see how it fit.
Robert Stone:
Oh.
Calvin Cooke:
But they played that certain way so long.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, it’s been ever since I can remember.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Even Del Ray Grace, he’s not in the church anymore, but…
Calvin Cooke:
He still have the same thing.
Robert Stone:
He plays, he’s got a pedal steel, but you don’t ever hear the pedals.
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, no. They basically still got that same sound.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
All of them. Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Well, yeah. In fact, you can see it in this photo of Tubby.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
His feet are flat on the ground. You know what I mean? He’s not on the pedals.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, that’s the way he always played. If they had a new tune or something, it’s just so long, because we used to, when we come in town in Cleveland, we go over to their house and we sit up and play guitars. Me, Maynard and Starlin. Especially Starlin and I. We go over and spend time with them. And stayed up half the night on the weekend. And just play music and whatnot because, and then whatever they had new back then, I could tell it, but I can’t tell it now.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Back then when I was really into it, I could tell the different stuff, because it would be totally a little different, but it would wind up coming around to the same circle they would be playing.
Robert Stone:
Right. Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And that’s how I could tell then because I was up under them. And we practiced a lot with Bobby and Tubby a lot and there were times, on different occasions, we would play in church with them.
Robert Stone:
Oh really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Robert Stone:
In Cleveland?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. Because I would go over to the Jewell Dominion a lot of times when I come home because a lot of my family’s over there.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And be with them. And we would play together.
Robert Stone:
So that was with, you’re talking with Tubby and-
Calvin Cooke:
With Tubby and Bobby.
Robert Stone:
Bobby, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Sometimes Tubby couldn’t, was working, then come to church, and once in a while I would play with Bobby. He would be the lead guitar player in those days, and then Sonny Gaines came along when they started to fade out because Sonny Gaines for a while was playing with Lorenzo Harrison. Then he came home and started being the lead player there in Cleveland. And I would play with him also.
Robert Stone:
And so about when was this?
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, God. The years, I couldn’t tell you. It had to be in the early ’60s. Had to be in the early ’60s.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
It had to be like maybe ’61, ’62, like that. Somewhere. I may not be correct, but it had to be the early-
Robert Stone:
No, in fact, I’ve been writing on this and so that’s, I was going to say, and it must’ve been in the ’60s.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. It had to be the early ’60s. Then we were traveling with Bishop Harrison during the summertime. Pretty tough back then. Like ’58-9, ’60, ’61. Then Starlin and Maynard went to the service.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
When I would come home, I would still go to my church, go to the Keith Dominion in the morning. At night, I would go to the Jewell Dominion.
Robert Stone:
So what church were you going to in the ’60s?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. In Cleveland, our church. In Cleveland. And go play for them in the morning for morning service.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
At night, I would go over to the Jewell Dominion and be with my family because both of them had night service.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Right.
Calvin Cooke:
But I would go and visit the family because I knew I would be there for the weekend or something.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And then go see Bobby and Tubby and hear them. And then if we find out Jewell was coming in, while we were there at the same time, then we would just be over there the whole weekend with the families. Because my family, uncles, and all them were there, but nobody would play them but Lorenzo. And his three-piece band. Back in those days then, Sonny Gaines, then another guy named Nina played lead with him too around that time from Dayton, Ohio. Nina’s dead now.
Robert Stone:
You don’t remember his last name?
Calvin Cooke:
No, I cannot remember. All we remembered was Nina.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. That sounds, that rings a bell. I’ve probably heard-
Calvin Cooke:
But I could get his last name, but he was a older guy who played with Lorenzo for awhile.
Robert Stone:
And what did he play? Guitar or drums?
Calvin Cooke:
He played lead. Lead guitar. Then Sonny Gaines. Those are the two I remember when I was young. But when I was growing up in the Jewell Dominion, then that was Harvey Jones.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Who were the originator, the way the guys play the lead now.
Robert Stone:
Right, right. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
It was Harvey Jones, Lorenzo Harrison, and…
Robert Stone:
Corroneva Burns.
Calvin Cooke:
Corroneva Burns. Because Corroneva Burns’ father and stepmother and his brothers, all of them went to the Jewell Dominion in Cleveland, Ohio. Back in those days, it was on Kinsman. Then when they were bringing in a new housing development in Cleveland, they moved on Cedar, in Cleveland then. Then Sonny Gaines came, Harvey Jones left. Then Sonny Gaines came in. Nina came in and were the two… Then, in the latter years, when what’s-his-name, Ronnie, they used to be a member of our church under Bishop Lockley. And when they left our church, that family left our church, then he started playing for Lorenzo. But he was very young then.
Robert Stone:
Ronnie Mozee?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. His family was a member of our church.
Robert Stone:
Of the House of God.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Of the Keith Dominion.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Not him per se, but his uncles in there. I don’t remember them, but the entire group over there, from Philadelphia. And let’s see, Philadelphia and Jersey, I believe it is, that was, or Baltimore, a certain group that Bishop Lockley was over. And when Bishop Lockley left, they left.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
So that bunch come out of, like, what’s those…? The Henderson sisters, they’re from the Keith Dominion. So a lot of that bunch went with them up there. And then that’s when Ronnie started playing with Lorenzo when he was a small kid. And he’s been there ever since.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I’m supposed to interview Ronnie. We’ll see if that actually happens.
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know if he… I know his uncles. I don’t remember Ronnie and them till later on. But I grew up with his uncles and whatnot.
Robert Stone:
Well, that’s Al Freddy and the Postelles?
Calvin Cooke:
That’s the Postelles. Right. They were the ones. And so I’m just assuming that they might’ve been apart and went over there with them. I don’t know if they was already there or not because we had a lot of folks between both churches.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And so I don’t know if they was here with us, but I know the Postelles and the Henderson sisters, and I forgot this Bishop’s name. And it was a lady Bishop and Bishop Randall, all of them was with us on the Keith Dominion side. All I really do remember is Ronnie with the Jewell Dominion. But I don’t know if he had been with us or not. But I know ever since a kid, he had been over there, like I did coming over here.
Robert Stone:
Tell me a little bit about your, how you remember Lorenzo Harrison, your impressions of him and what kind of guy he was.
Calvin Cooke:
I was born in that church.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
So he was a fixture when I was growing up because we had headquarters in Cleveland, Ohio, on Kinsman Street.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
So we had the general assembly in Cleveland. And behind the church, my family and other families, they owned, I believe, the church. I may not be correct, but the church, I believe, owned a bunch of houses.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I’ve heard that from several people.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Behind the church. And my family lived in those houses and other people. So it was like a community for us. All of us from the Jewell Dominion. And we stayed there. Well, my aunt did and uncles did. My family didn’t, but we was there every day, over there all the time. And my grandmother stayed behind there because my grandma and aunt were two of the main people who were there. Matter of fact, the whole family. My whole family were there at the Jewell Dominion. So we grew up with listening at Lorenzo and Harvey and Corroneva Burns.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And so they were a fixture to us. It wasn’t like you just got to know them. I knew him all my life. I didn’t know that he had a brother until later on. Or the rest of his family. But we knew Lorenzo first because we grew up under Bishop Jewell. And back in those days, all of us was like a big family.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Like a big community, a family, and a big family church, it was one of the largest Pentecostal churches back then in those days.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
In Cleveland. So that had to be, from my memory, I was born in ’44. So it had to be good memories from, starting ’48 on up.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Because back in those days, my mother and them, they always had a program before service. I mean, before pre-service. And my mother, different ones and cousins had a group. And then once in a while, my father and them, they would have a program back in those days where the Sam Cooke and all those…
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Would travel through. And my father had a singing group he sang with, gospel singing group, and they would hold programs once in a while at that church in Cleveland. And they would come through there and give a afternoon program, this before all the… These groups were famous. And then we attend church regular. So that was a fixture for us, with Lorenzo playing. He played every weekend, except when he was on the road. Now, who took his place? I don’t remember who it was because I guess Jewell was mostly there in Cleveland a lot of times. And when she traveled, whoever played in their place while they were gone, I don’t remember who they were. I just remember Lorenzo in them because when they come in town, that was the talk, they were there, and the church would be full.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). So he was popular way back, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
So in those days, that was before he started playing with that wah pedal.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn’t start. He just played regular, had a Fender. If my mind serves me correctly. And a lot of times he played a double neck for a long time. He would trade between two. But I can remember a double neck he played a lot of times. And then when I left the Jewell Dominion, his sound started changing. First, I think when they brought out the echo and the amps, he was the one who brought it in the Jewell Dominion to try it out. So back in those days, if you were a top musician, whatever, you try it out and played, they just felt like that was a divine sound back in those days because he was already a skillful player for the Jewell Dominion. And he was already reverenced all over the Jewell Dominion as a top musician, because he was her musician.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
So whatever you did with her, you was automatically put in the top spot.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Right.
Calvin Cooke:
So if you sang, or she requested you to sing, you became top spot and everybody reverenced, whatever she said. And when he started playing, he brought in that echo and started playing that. That was the reverb sound. And then after that a few years, then he started playing with the Morley. And that was a complete different sound. But that was one sound that he kept until this day.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, that’s the sound that stuck.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. That sound stuck and he played that until his death. He stayed with that because it worked for him, but he played without it for years. And then he found something that he liked and then he stuck with it. And that became the sound for that church over there.
Robert Stone:
But you never really got into that, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
No. What happened, I tell you, I didn’t learn how to play at the Jewell Dominion.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
I didn’t start until I got over to the Keith Dominion. And after I started playing with them, they were totally different.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And then playing with Starlin and Maynard every day on the road during the time we were out of school, we wasn’t into the particular sound. We was into Gretsch guitars then. Fender amp, and back then we used Silvertone a lot back then. Churches bought Silvertone amps back then. And then we got into Fender a little more and started playing with those. And back in those days, when we started playing, when I started playing, I didn’t start experimenting really until I got into the pedal. And that’s when I started experimenting with all the different sounds then. But I liked what they were doing with the pedals, but my mother would always drill in my head, be different.
Calvin Cooke:
If you’re going to, if you’re playing for Bishop Keith, you’re traveling all over, be different. And I didn’t understand it at first because my influence was Lorenzo so, whatever Lorenzo did, that’s what I wanted to do. And she said, be different, pray for being different to make your own sound. If you playing for Bishop Keith, then you ask God to give you your own different sound. And then a lot of times we would go to Nashville and Bishop Jewell would have her assembly, they was both on the same street then. Ohynan Street.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And all my family would come down. So I would meet them first and be with them and go to the assembly. Lorenzo didn’t use the Morley then. This had to be possibly in the late ’60s.
Robert Stone:
Right. Well, it wasn’t invented, they didn’t sell it until ’73.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. It wasn’t then, because he played just regular with what he had back in those days in the house. And then that’s all we knew and what he played then. Then later on, the echo- the reverb was first. That was the first thing that he experimented on because when they, I can’t think of what year that was. They started putting or trying reverb, or I don’t know if it came out the amp or he had a box.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t remember seeing it or, all I know, I heard it.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And to us, that was totally different. And he used that. But he didn’t do it a whole lot. Different things that he wanted to do or bring in, he would bring it in. And he pulled it in and out, in and out. And then when we went to the regular general assembly, we would get down to Nashville early, go eat with Lorenzo and Bishop Jewell, be there for the assemblies. Back in those days, Sonny Gaines was playing with him then. And then Nina. And then I would go and play the offering, just the offering time, sometime with them. And then we attend the assembly and remember the different tunes he would play. And then later on, back in the ’70s, then he came out with that Morley.
Robert Stone:
All right.
Calvin Cooke:
And started playing that and that stuck and he stayed with that until ’86, when he died. He kept that sound.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Three main guitars he played. A double neck, a triple neck and a single. Those are the ones that he played with, and then later on, much, much later, he had that guitar built within the organ.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
That he’s got. Ronnie Mozee has that with him.
Robert Stone:
Right. They call it the harp.
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Did you go to his funeral?
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, no. I wasn’t at his funeral. We were playing out at that particular time.
Robert Stone:
Something I’m looking for is a copy of his funeral booklet, the obituary booklet.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
I’m trying to find…
Calvin Cooke:
Ronnie might have one.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I would imagine he would, if I could just-
Calvin Cooke:
Ronnie might have one. I couldn’t attend it. At the time, we were tied up playing with, but his family did. Because once a year they all, about this time of year, February, we all would be, this was when I was younger, I’m going back now. Again, Lorenzo would come to Miami and his sister who lived in Ocala, and he had a sister that lived, his mother was living then. She lived in Ocala and he had a sister that lived in Orlando. Then one in Miami. Then he had one brother, Elder Harrison, lived in Miami. And they all would congregate there in Miami and have a big family gathering. Every year, when their mother was living. And all of them would come together, because I would be in the mix of that. And we all would be together. Do you know they never talk church or music unless maybe the kids bring it up? And it would be just a little bit then.
Robert Stone:
Huh. Now this was what time of year would they do this?
Calvin Cooke:
This time of year, February.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And they would, Bishop Jewell would be down for the winter. In that area. We would go down for the winter. We stayed with Elder Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
The Lee boys were babies. They were being born at the time. Their sisters were the oldest ones.
Robert Stone:
And you say Elder Harrison, you mean Marshall Harrison?
Calvin Cooke:
Marshall Harrison.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. We all stayed with them because they had sisters, Gertrude. I can’t remember all their names then. Their mother, Lorenzo would bring their mother up.
Robert Stone:
And that was in…
Calvin Cooke:
They all congregate in Miami.
Robert Stone:
Is that in Richmond Heights there?
Calvin Cooke:
In Richmond Heights. And be there together in February. Jewell, she would stay somewhere else in Florida. I think they had a home there. I can’t remember exactly where it was now. But Lorenzo would come from where he was and be with the family. And they would all hang out for a couple of days. I guess it was like a reunion deal with their mother and all the brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews. And we all would just be together and fry fish. Stuff like that. And this was all what they would do.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Hang on a second.
Calvin Cooke:
We would stay longer.
Robert Stone:
All right, hang on. I got to change tapes.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Actually there’s a couple of things I wanted to clear up, I almost forgot them. You had all your kids from your first marriage, right?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right.
Robert Stone:
And let’s see, her name was Janet Thomas?
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
And her grandmother was a Elder-
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Her grandmother was Bernice White.
Robert Stone:
Pastor in Dayton?
Calvin Cooke:
Pastor in Dayton.
Robert Stone:
And that was 1974?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Now… What are your children’s names?
Calvin Cooke:
The oldest one is Laquita, one name is Latrina, but that’s not with Janet though, Latrina. But Laquita is. Monique, M-O-N
Robert Stone:
I-Q-U-E?
Calvin Cooke:
I-Q-U-E.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
And then Marquita, M-A-R-Q-U-I-T-A, I think.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
And then Marcus.
Robert Stone:
Marcus.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
And who was it that Robert went with? Randolph?
Calvin Cooke:
He would be with Monique and Quita. They all ran together.
Robert Stone:
Okay. But he dated one of your daughters, right?
Calvin Cooke:
I think it was Monique.
Robert Stone:
Right. Okay. You know, I’m just trying to bring out a little bit about how everybody’s connected.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And then, in the 70s, where were you playing? Where was the church? And…?
Calvin Cooke:
Back in the ’70s, Jenkins had come in. We played wherever he went, different places, and different assemblies. He didn’t do as much traveling as Jewell did. I mean, Keith did. But the beginning, when he came in, in the ’60s, he did quite a bit of traveling. But in the ’70s, late, he starts slowing down and didn’t do that much.
Robert Stone:
But how about in Detroit, where did you go to church in Detroit?
Calvin Cooke:
Mount Elliott.
Robert Stone:
Mount Elliott.
Calvin Cooke:
Back then there, the Elder Wilson was the pastor, until he died-
Robert Stone:
That’s the church I went to. For Ted’s thing. And, who’s Elder who?
Calvin Cooke:
Elder Wilson. Vernon Wilson was the pastor then.
Robert Stone:
Vernon Wilson. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Okay. I think that’s what I was looking for there. And so once, around in the early 70s, when Ted got into being the chief musician at the General Assembly, and then Chuck came on board in what about 1973? And what happened? I mean, is that, is that who it was, it was you and Ted, and…?
Calvin Cooke:
First it was me playing for a while. Then when Jenkins come in, Ted and I started playing back to back every day in the General Assembly, together. And then by Ted being older, they appointed him because they said I wasn’t stable, and by him being older, he was stable, and they appointed him over the music. And then we still played, back-to-back, all through the 70s, as a matter of fact up until now.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
For his whole career.
Robert Stone:
Right. And how about Chuck? But-
Calvin Cooke:
Chuck come along, played drums for both of us, for quite a while, and he would play a few day sessions. And then later on I came… I want to say ’74, ’75. He wasn’t playing as much, until later on, ’78, ’79 he started coming up more and more, playing, because him and I would hang a lot, and they would come up here and visit. And he played exactly like me for a while. And I tried to tell him, he thought I was trying to push him away, but he was so skillful, and I saw how he played, and I was trying to tell him, start developing his own style, then, because people will start respecting him for what he could do. Because he could emulate me, he could emulate Ted, he could emulate Henry. Me and Ted and Henry wasn’t into that, emulating each other. But being around them, me personally, I learned to do it because of them, at first, because we just kept our own identity. And then he started playing and started developing his way of playing, and then his brothers and them. Phil used to play bass, then Phil learned how to play the lead. And then the youngest brother was playing drums. And then he developed his skills. First it was Chuck, then Phil, and then Darick. That’s how they come down the line.
Robert Stone:
Right. I’m getting a low battery signal on my phone. I’m going to change phones, so just hang on. It’ll work. So you’ll probably lose me for just a minute, but I’ll be right back.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay, I’ll be here.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay. Well, so that was basically it once Chuck… Chuck kind of slowly settled in then, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. Then he became in…. Actually… [Tape stops]. …. generation who started, then Willie Eason came down the line. Then I came after that, along with Bishop Keith, because Henry had left and come back. I guess you would say that was the third generation. Or, because I would say Henry Harrison was along with Nelson, them two played along together, in the same generation.
Robert Stone:
Now I get confused about Henry Harrison, was this…?
Calvin Cooke:
Well, he wasn’t what you call a big famous player. But him and Henry…
Robert Stone:
You’re talking about the Bishop, the same guy you traveled with?
Calvin Cooke:
Henry? No, his son.
Robert Stone:
His son.
Calvin Cooke:
His son’s name was Henry Harrison. Jr. He played steel, but he wasn’t… Him and Nelson played along the same time. But Henry was more popular and more famous than he was. So you don’t never hear much about him, because people really didn’t care for his music. That’s why you never really hear about him that much, and then I came along. So you would say that was a one, two, the third generation. And then Ted came along, I guess you would say him and I came along at the same time but I was there, way before, maybe a few years.
Calvin Cooke:
Let’s see, I came in, in ’58. Ted didn’t come until about the 60s. I don’t know exactly when in 60s he came in. What exact time, when he came in. So this year will make 50, I mean 48 years for me playing for the church.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Now, but as I understand it, talking about the General Assembly, and you were playing back in the 50s right?
Calvin Cooke:
Right.
Robert Stone:
But you didn’t necessarily play every day?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, I did.
Robert Stone:
You did?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. I played every day because all the steel players wasn’t there. Nobody was there but me. What happened when Henry and them left, I didn’t know them. And when I came along, Bishop Dillard, Grace’s two uncles, and Elder Brown out of South Carolina, were playing in the General Assembly just to make music. And when we came in, they moved over because they were just playing. They came… When we came in and started playing, they left it, and didn’t play anymore, and left it totally to us.
Robert Stone:
So that was Henry Dillard?
Calvin Cooke:
Henry Dillard and his brother… Grace, who was your other…? Mack Dillard. They played.
Robert Stone:
He played, Mack played steel?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he played steel too. And then there was a Brown, I can’t think of his first name, but Elder Brown out of, I believe it was Charleston, South Carolina who played lead guitar, because I used to play with him for a while. And I played every session, every day. Because who played, who could tell you was, wait a minute, I’m going to get his name.
Calvin Cooke:
Grace. What’s the man’s name? Tammy’s father-in-law’s name.
Calvin Cooke:
Robinson. And what’s the other guy’s name who played drums with me? He walks with a walker now. Elder Robinson played the drums with me in every session when he was a young teenager. He lives in New York. He goes to- used to go to Chuck’s and them church.
Robert Stone:
That’s yeah, Luther…
Calvin Cooke:
Luther Robinson.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Now, if you want to get some information on some… Now he can enlighten you because him and I come along the same time, and he played drums with me.
Calvin Cooke:
It was another guy that played drums, too. I can not think of his name, but he’s out of Florida. And I can’t, well as I know him, and I can’t think of his name. But Luther Robinson played drums with me, because we used to have to move the music, back in those days from the church to the tent behind the church. What’s the man’s name who played the drums out of…? His wife died, and she was a good speaker. Out of Florida. And he played drums with her. Okay, I can’t think of his name, but those two guys played drums.
Robert Stone:
Now, when he would that have been? About when was that are you talking about?
Calvin Cooke:
I could not tell you, Bob. It had to be, oh, that was in Bishop Keith’s days. That was in that time, I guess I’m going back, that was during that time. But Robinson, Luther Robinson, played drums with us for a long time. He was the main drummer, before all these young ones, and him and I played together in every session of the music, for everything, for years, for a long time. And that’s when Ted and them came along, later on.
Robert Stone:
Now how about Ted? But Ted’s told me he came to the General Assembly and I forget what year and he said, there wasn’t a steel in sight.
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, no. No. We played… Ted…
Calvin Cooke:
I’ve been there ever since, and never miss. And when Ted come, I don’t remember that. Now, who could vouch and tell you the truth on that? You can ask Chuck and them, or you can ask Bishop Campbell, because I’ve been there ever since, way before that. Never had Ted come in it hadn’t been a steel guitar. Now, because Ted’s memory might be slacking up, because Ted told us that we wasn’t there when he came and I never missed, in 57, 58 years. And who, some of the people here can verify that, like the older pioneers like Morgan, you could possibly ask Luther Robinson, all the older folks who knew, and they can tell you the history. Bishop Campbell can tell you better than anybody because he was sitting by me, and was the secretary. And the General Assembly has never went without a steel guitar player.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Not that I know of.
Robert Stone:
I hate it when I get these conflicting stories.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right, right, right, right. Right, right. And I’ll tell you another person. What Grace’s mother could tell you, well she’s gone now, but in her family, they could tell you exactly about that.
Robert Stone:
Well, maybe I’ll see if I can talk to Bishop Campbell about it because-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Far as I know now, because he was the secretary, and ever since I was a little boy, he was the secretary of the church because he sat there by us. And he remembered us from kids on. Now if anybody could tell you, I think he could tell you on exactly, I’m saying as far as my memory is concerned. Now that is the reason. But I have never missed, as far as I know. So you could check it out to make sure.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Right. I’m trying to get…
Calvin Cooke:
You know, to make that sure. What I’m going on, is memory too. And it’s been so long, so now I could skip something, or not remember something myself. But as far as I can remember, I’ve been playing there, and never missed.
Robert Stone:
Since like 1958 or whatever it is?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. Some of the older folks here, you ask them, they could tell you, you can ask some of the older people who been in there and know about the music, they could possibly tell you exactly. Possibly Bishop Dillard, if he could remember back. Or some of these older people, or Luther Robinson, if you talk to him, he could give you a history on that.
Grace:
…Bishop Campbell.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. He’d be a good guy to talk to.
Calvin Cooke:
But Bishop Campbell can tell you everything, because he was the secretary. And I’m going to tell you something, if every, anybody would know, would Bishop Campbell. And if I was wrong, or if I’m wrong, let me know, because I want to find out and be correct myself.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
So you talk to Bishop Campbell and he could tell you everything because he was into our music, stuck by us, and he was the one who sat there and knew when we played, when we were there, and everything.
Grace:
He was a General Assembly-
Calvin Cooke:
And he was a General Assembly secretary. He can, he could tell you when Ted came in.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
He can tell you all that. Or Chuck and them, they can find out for you.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, well I can probably talk to Bishop Campbell.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. You talk to Bishop Campbell, and he will give you that information. Because anybody know, he would know, because he was there next to us every time we played.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Well, I think, that’s probably all the questions I had.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
I usually forget something, I can always call back.
Calvin Cooke:
If you do, just give me a call.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, okay. Now I sure would appreciate anything you could do as far as helping me chase down this photograph of Tubby Golden.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I try to see what I could do, and I’ll get a hold of Jane, then I’m going to try to get ahold of my cousin who was married to him. And see what she might have and see what she could do. And I’ll try to get in touch with them this weekend.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Great.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay Bob.
Robert Stone:
Well, all right. Well thanks a lot.
Calvin Cooke:
Thanks a lot, man.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Have a safe trip.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay, and tell your wife I say hello.
Robert Stone:
I sure will, she just came in.
Calvin Cooke:
All right, bye-bye.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Bye.
Robert Stone:
So, yeah. Just had a few questions. When did you play your first general assembly?
Calvin Cooke:
It might’ve been 1958 or ’59.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
I’m not sure which one.
Robert Stone:
Okay. That’s close enough and who else was there playing?
Calvin Cooke:
Maynard Sopher.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Starlin Harrison. The drummer I’m not sure, we had several drummers. Well one I can remember, it might’ve been a guy named Reverend Robinson, out of New York who goes to Chuck and them church now.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
I think he was on the drums.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Okay. That’s good enough. Was that all? You guys would only-
Calvin Cooke:
No, on organ, they had a girl named Bobbie Jean Moore.
Robert Stone:
Bobbie Jean Moore.
Calvin Cooke:
Alma Jean. Or was it Alma Jean? I can’t think of her last name. But Alma Jean was on the piano.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Okay. So you had the organ and piano?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We had an organ and piano, that was at the old church.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, let’s see. No, no, no, this guy I’m thinking about didn’t come till later, but that, Bob- I’m thinking about… What’s his name? Live in Jacksonville.
Robert Stone:
Oh.
Calvin Cooke:
He was there when we were there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, I know who you mean.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, he had did a show for you. I can’t call his name. He came later.
Robert Stone:
His mother’s in the church.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. He came later-
Robert Stone:
On keyboard-
Calvin Cooke:
Playing the organ, but during that time Bobbie Jean and Alma Jean played the organ and piano with us.
Robert Stone:
Right. Okay. I can almost say his name, Baldwin. No-
Calvin Cooke:
Grace, what’s the guy’s name we met, that he used to play the organ with us?
Grace:
Larry Boston.
Calvin Cooke:
Larry Boston.
Robert Stone:
Larry Boston, right.
Calvin Cooke:
Larry started playing, I believe… When was Larry playing Grace? In the ’70s?
Grace:
’76? … [inaudible 00:02:57].
Calvin Cooke:
Larry played in the ’70s to the ’80s I think.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Now were you and Starlin the only steel players back then in ’58, ’59?
Calvin Cooke:
Well yes. We were the only ones that played, nobody else at that time.
Robert Stone:
Right. Was it 10 days at that time?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
It was?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Because all the older guys who were playing, didn’t play when we came around.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Who had that been? Who was before you, do you know?
Calvin Cooke:
If my memory serves me two of Grace’s uncles, I think. Mack Dillard maybe. I didn’t hear him, but I heard he played and Bishop Dillard.
Robert Stone:
Mack Dillard.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Or Mack Dillard?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, Mack Dillard.
Robert Stone:
Mack Dillard and Bishop Henry Dillard?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Anybody else. I’m not… No Junior Harrison. He would play once in a while. His name is Henry Harrison Jr.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
That’s all I can remember during that time we were playing. Hello?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I’m just-
Calvin Cooke:
I heard a click, I didn’t know if you had left.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I don’t know what’s going on. I dropped my phone earlier-
Calvin Cooke:
It might’ve been mine, because sometime it clicks-
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Or it be off all day, off the little thing all day.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. No, it sounds okay now. So how long did it go on like that? I mean, when did other steel players start coming in besides you and Starlin?
Calvin Cooke:
I think in the ’70s then Ronnie Hall started coming in, Ted come in maybe in the 70s I believe. Early part of the 70s in Bishop Jenkins time. Exactly when? I don’t know the exact-
Robert Stone:
Right. That’s okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, when Ted started playing. Then-
Robert Stone:
So it would be you and Ted?
Calvin Cooke:
Just me and Ted then.
Robert Stone:
When it was that era?
Calvin Cooke:
In the ’70s.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Starlin and Maynard got drafted, I can’t remember exactly when. Because they had left and got drafted-
Robert Stone:
Was that before you went to Chrysler?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Then Ronnie Hall in the ’70s was playing steel. I was playing steel, Ted was playing steel.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
Then some part in the ’70s, Ted and [inaudible 00:06:21], just him and I back and forth.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
I think in the ’80s, I want to say the ’80s… Grace, when did Henry come back? In ’80s?
Grace:
[inaudible 00:06:43].
Calvin Cooke:
I think Grace said, Henry come back about ’78 or ’79.
Robert Stone:
Actually, Chuck says that Henry came back in ’73.
Calvin Cooke:
’73?
Robert Stone:
On Florida night and they didn’t go over very well and then he came back the next year and went over okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. So that might’ve been… He would know-
Robert Stone:
Yeah. That’s best he can remember.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Chuck spent some time figuring it all out and that seems to kind of add up.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
So it was in the early ’70s when you and Ted were swapping off.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right, right. The early ’70s.
Grace:
[inaudible 00:07:23].
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Grace:
[inaudible 00:07:24].
Calvin Cooke:
No, no, we got it figured-
Grace:
[inaudible 00:07:29].
Calvin Cooke:
Grace was saying he came back to the church, but he wasn’t playing in Nashville.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
But as far as they can remember, it was later. But Chucks father was the secretary during that time.
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Calvin Cooke:
Then Chuck was playing drums for- during that time I believe, or switching up. So he would know better, those younger guys know better history, better than I would.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Well, Chuck remembers that… When Chuck played his first general assembly.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. What year was that?
Robert Stone:
Well.
Calvin Cooke:
It had to be the early ’70s? Late ’70s?
Robert Stone:
No, it wasn’t the late ’70s. It was-
Calvin Cooke:
Early?
Robert Stone:
Oh, well-
Calvin Cooke:
No. It had to be before ’74. It had to be about, ’73.
Robert Stone:
I’ll get it in a minute, I’m just looking it up.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, don’t worry about it.
Robert Stone:
No. Well, I’m trying to get it all straight see-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
I was curious myself when he had started.
Robert Stone:
Okay. 1971, he said Ted and Larry Taylor played a great deal.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay, that’s right. That’s right. Larry Taylor played lead.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s right. I forgot about that, because he played with me a lot on Saturday nights. That’s true, Larry Taylor played. Let’s see, I think I already have a Elder Brown playing before them. I think I told you about him. Then Starlin and Maynard left.
Robert Stone:
1972, Ted with Kenny Ellis and Ben Shaw.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Then Jensen Ehrsam. Okay. Chuck said he first saw Henry Nelson in 1972 at the New Jersey State Assembly.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. I don’t remember-
Robert Stone:
Then he shows up at the general assembly on ’73 just to play for Florida night.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Blah, blah, blah.
Calvin Cooke:
I think after that he started playing regular in the lineup. So it became Ted, Henry and myself.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. In 1974 was when Chuck says he first played in the general assembly. Okay. All right. Then Chuck became the fourth one. Yeah. So it’s you and Ted and Henry and Chuck.
Calvin Cooke:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
I think I’m the longest one in this generation that’s been playing there, among all of them.
Robert Stone:
You were just a kid when you started playing in general assembly.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah. A teenager.
Robert Stone:
58.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
You were just… 58 or 59, you were 14 or 15 years old.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. I was kid then. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Ain’t a kid anymore.
Calvin Cooke:
No. Man.
Robert Stone:
Me neither.
Calvin Cooke:
Man. All that’s gone, boy. All that’s gone.
Robert Stone:
Now. Let’s see. When did you and Grace get married and who is she related to?
Calvin Cooke:
We got married in ’71.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
My first wife was Janet Thomas. Her maiden name, Janet Thomas and we were married until-
Robert Stone:
From when to when?
Calvin Cooke:
I believe ’73. It might’ve been ’74. ’74 until I think about ’85.
Robert Stone:
Wait a minute. When did you and Grace get married?
Calvin Cooke:
We got married in ’91.
Robert Stone:
Okay. You said ’71, so I was about to say wait a minute.
Calvin Cooke:
My mistake, ’91.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Now was-
Calvin Cooke:
She’s related to Bishop and Elder Dillard. Mack Dillard and Bishop Dillard.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s their niece.
Robert Stone:
So that’s her uncles?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. It’s a whole big family of them in the church.
Robert Stone:
Right. That’s right, we were talking about that the other day.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
How about your first wife, was she related to somebody in the church?
Calvin Cooke:
Her grandmother was a elder in Dayton Ohio.
Robert Stone:
What was her name?
Calvin Cooke:
Bernice White.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
She pastored at one of the churches in Dayton Ohio. Well, the only church in Dayton. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Yeah, that’s enough. I just want-
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
[inaudible 00:13:58]. Well I think that’s…
Calvin Cooke:
I looked for the envelope to try to find Maynard’s phone number.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
I can’t find his. But my brother [inaudible 00:14:17] today and I’ll get Ronnie’s from him.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Can you hold on a second.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Oh, I know what I was going to say, is that you were going to get me Maynard and Ronnie Hall’s number.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. I went on the web and found the Jewell Dominion website.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, did you?
Robert Stone:
I sent them an email asking about that calendar.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
But I haven’t heard back from them, but also they’ve got some of their church numbers on there. I might try and call up Bishop Treadway.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, okay.
Robert Stone:
See if I can get her-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, maybe she might be able to get you one.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. If they’ll answer the phone. Used to be Sonny wouldn’t answer my calls for a while. I don’t know if he would.
Calvin Cooke:
What I’m going to do, I’m going to call Terry my cousin. His mother went home the other day, so I’m going to try to call her again tonight.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
See if they got anything available. Matter of fact, I’m going to see if she can get me Maynard’s number.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Gary, my brother be over, so he has Ronnie’s number. So he’s bringing that over.
Robert Stone:
So just to let you know where I am right now with this stuff I’m writing in the book.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
I’ve got it all the way up to where… The way I see there was two things, besides these early influences you had.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Then there was that occasion when Bishop Keith prayed over your hands and you went back and your music changed radically.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Then that was like 1959 or something. Then about a year later was when you came up with your tuning.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
So that was another big change.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Was that kind of it as far as how your music formed? I mean, from then on, it was just… I mean, not that you stagnated or anything, but from then on your style was kind of formed up pretty good.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. It was formed from that.
Robert Stone:
Now, did you have any particular guitar players that you worked with at the convention? Or backup guys? Did you fall into kind of having some of the same guys you preferred to play with.
Calvin Cooke:
Ronnie Hall was one. In Nashville we switched up.
Robert Stone:
So he would play guitar with you?
Calvin Cooke:
Yes, he played guitar with me.
Robert Stone:
Okay, because you said he also was a real good steel player.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right.
Robert Stone:
So would he play steel at the general assembly?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. He played steel. And Kenny Ellis, when he started playing, then he became Ted and I’s main guitar player. [inaudible 00:17:51]. But before Kenny Ellis then Larry-
Robert Stone:
Larry Taylor.
Calvin Cooke:
Taylor would come in and him and I would play together on Saturday nights.
Robert Stone:
He was supposed to be pretty good player, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah, he was real good.
Robert Stone:
Now that’s-
Calvin Cooke:
He was very good. Different guys would come in and we’d make adjustments. But the main guy that I really made a lot of progress with playing was Ronnie Hall and Kenny Ellis. Played a lot with Larry Taylor, because he would only come in sometimes for weekends or a few days and I played with him on Saturdays. But Kenny and Ronnie was regular then.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Okay. All right, I think I got it.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. When will you be through with the book?
Robert Stone:
Good question. I don’t know. Frankly, it’s probably going to be another year.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
It’s a lot of time.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
I want to get it right. I want to get all the important stuff and-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Trying to keep all the facts checked and all that. I’ve pretty much finished the hardest ones, which was Willie Eason and Henry.
Calvin Cooke:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
I wanted to do them first, because well Willie’s mind is already going.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Then Henry, one of my main sources for Henry for the early stuff is his sister and her health is real bad.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Mary Linzy. So I’ve been concentrating on them and for instance, writing about you has gone twice as fast. Five times as fast as writing about Henry or Willy.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
That’s just real slow going, because man they can’t remember anything right and people are dead and they don’t know when anybody was born or died. I mean, you try and get some info on Troman Eason, you know.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
None of these guys had birth certificates.
Calvin Cooke:
Man. Well my mind is getting to be about like theirs almost.
Robert Stone:
One thing about that, Henry Nelson was a year older than what he told everybody and that sucker didn’t graduate high school ’till he was 20 years old.
Calvin Cooke:
Man, oh man.
Robert Stone:
20 or 21. I forgot.
Calvin Cooke:
Man if it wasn’t for Bishop Harrison, I wanted to come out, but he always stayed on us.
Robert Stone:
Right, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
He always pressed that and we didn’t realize today we would need it, ’cause I was lucky to get a job at Chrysler.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
And he would stay on us and I wanted to really come out and he would go back and we would go back to Cleveland. Then he would talk to my mother and see if whatever you can do to keep him in.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
So I’m glad that happened. I wasn’t [crosstalk 00:21:22] further, because I was interested in what I was doing.
Robert Stone:
Right, yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
And I didn’t have that material anyway, I barely made it through. So I appreciate it anyway.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, right. No, exactly.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Especially nowadays.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Then I was lucky to get my job at Chrysler when I did and stayed there all that time and retired, so everything worked itself out.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Well, great. I think that’s the questions I got for now anyhow, if there’s any…
Calvin Cooke:
I’ll see what I could conjure up from Terry and I’m going to call this evening and try to get them and see about this calendar.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, that’d be real good because that thing’s going to be a gold mine for me, the information.
Calvin Cooke:
[inaudible 00:22:18] really interesting.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
If not then if there’s some way I could copy this.
Robert Stone:
Okay, well hang on, please.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I know Chuck’s father have a lot of history, because he was the church secretary for a long time.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah, of course. That guy’s so hard to get ahold of.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think he’s gone back and forth.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay, Calvin. Well, that’s probably it for now.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
All right, well I appreciate it.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay, and look to hear from me.
Robert Stone:
Alrighty, you take care.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
Bye, bye.
Robert Stone:
Bye.
Robert Stone:
This interview is for the Sacred Steel book, going to be published by University of Illinois Press. Is that okay?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Great. Well I’m just wrapping this- trying to get this doggone thing done and I’m almost there.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, good.
Robert Stone:
I feel like one of those gospels singers saying, “Too close. Too close.”
Calvin Cooke:
Almost to my journey’s end.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Right. Or, “99 and a Half Won’t Do.”
Calvin Cooke:
Well, at least you got that far.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Actually I’m really liking it. And remember Ian that came to the Sacred Steel convention, the guy from Canada?
Calvin Cooke:
No. I can’t remember him.
Robert Stone:
He’s-
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, I remember him. The guy from-
Robert Stone:
From Canada.
Calvin Cooke:
Right. I remember him.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, he’s retired. He was an English teacher, he just retired. So he’s been reading it and helping me, giving me suggestions.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh good. How he like it?
Robert Stone:
He really likes it. So that was good because I can’t tell, man.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Too close to it.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s when it work, when you get somebody else to-
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s long. It’s like 375 pages.
Calvin Cooke:
Wow.
Robert Stone:
I got a whole chapter on you.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh man.
Robert Stone:
About 40 pages, something like that, 35 pages.
Calvin Cooke:
My goodness.
Robert Stone:
Anyhow, the last chapter, as you might imagine, I’m writing about things that are going on today. And I realized as I started writing things out that I’m not clear on just how all this stuff has transpired about people not being allowed to play anymore and the guys getting in trouble with the church for playing out and all that. So I wanted to, if you don’t mind to talk about some of that stuff.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. That’d be fine.
Robert Stone:
How did that go for you personally? Did you get some written warnings or when and where and how did all this start?
Calvin Cooke:
First, everything came by word of mouth. The leader, she had been from what I understand, had about-
Robert Stone:
You’re talking about Fletcher now?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Talking about Bishop Fletcher. She had been having trouble with musicians in her church. And I think she had a thing of thinking along with, I understand, her son-in-law, who’d been helped guiding her thinking or guiding her.
Robert Stone:
And who would that be?
Calvin Cooke:
That would be Tim Mim. That she seemed to have something personal against musicians on how they should stay in the church and only play for the House of God church and that the music come from the House of God. And this is where it should stay. But the musicians, some felt a little different, her ideas that also they shouldn’t go out and make music as a living. She felt that they should get a job. Music was not to be made to make a living out of it. And I think that’s how it started from what I understand. Well, from what I know for a fact that after she became a leader of the organization, the musicians from Philadelphia started broadcasting that, if they’re turned out on that day, we’re going to be in the positions that we were in and that we were going to be moved purposely out so they can come in and take our place and start being the musicians. And that’s how it started by word of mouth. And we heard this for a while. After she had became chief leader of the church, then her musicians started boasting that we’re going to be out. Then some would tell us that a change was going to be made. I didn’t know I was the one who would make the big change and be kicked out. But it came through word of mouth that I’m no longer able to play because her and her son-in-law would go on the internet along with other people I understand who would get all the information off my website and send it to her. Anything that presented to say that we plan at this blues festival that blue festival, that’s what they would give to her. They wouldn’t give her the whole or didn’t look into the whole idea of that blues festival have a separate gospel part to it, but they only gave the blues. So anything that said blues, that did it for them because that’s what they used against me.
Calvin Cooke:
And then after that, they began to, by word of mouth, saying that, “Calvin can’t play,” or certain ones that were playing out.” At first, they gave the impression that we were out playing blues. So they said, “They can’t go out. They can’t play in this church because they were out playing blues.” And then after they thought about it the next year, then they said, “Okay, they can’t go out or play in this church again because they’re out playing for venues.” Then the people would come in after, “Are you playing blues? Or we never heard you play blues.” Or those who came to see us said, “We’d never seen you play blues.” And that’s where all this come down from. And then she started writing the Sunday school lesson, teaching against the musicians in the church, the ones that are going out. Then she starts putting it in the Sunday school lesson about the musicians going out playing, and then she made a statement in the general assembly, “If they go out and make records, then they have to spruce the records up the sound so they could sell CDs.” So she gave the impression that we had to blues the record up or fix it so the other people could buy the record. So she was giving the audience, the church, the impression that one way or another, we had to go blues just to sell records. That’s how that came down.
Robert Stone:
Did you ever get anything in writing or something like that or-
Calvin Cooke:
Nothing. Never in writing. Just mouth to mouth. Then they always talk from the pulpit. She did. Four times I tried to get in contact with her to discuss it with her, but they would never get back with me. They never got back and try to have any dialogue with us at all.
Robert Stone:
So you say, try to get in contact, you phoned, or did you write, or?
Calvin Cooke:
We phoned Nashville and wrote, emailed Nashville twice when they were there. They sent a message that I should contact them. And every time I tried to contact them, they would never respond back to us. And they did the same thing to Aubrey Ghent. And he had let me know they would never get back with us because they didn’t do the same thing to him. They had waited for hours and hours trying to talk to her and they would call people in, but they wouldn’t call them in and they wouldn’t respond to him. They wrote him a dissatisfactory letter. They never wrote me a letter, never had anything in writing. But she told all the bishops that she put this on me, she’s the one who could take it off, but she never responded to me. Plus she didn’t want anybody else who were not members to play in this church. And if you were… Hello?
Robert Stone:
Yeah, I’m still there.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, okay. I know this phone goes off. If they were not a member, they could not play in his church. But it hadn’t been that way because it’s been very unfair because there are people who are not members of the church or have not been to church or don’t come and they’ve been allowed to play in her presence and she’s never said anything about it. So it seems like she’s made it very personal on me.
Robert Stone:
Well, you know this sort of thing goes all the way back to Willie Eason, doesn’t it?
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. It’s same thing that happened to him.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah. But it’s interesting that you never got anything in writing.
Calvin Cooke:
Never. They never responded to me. We emailed them, at the church we call the-
Robert Stone:
To get the time- I didn’t mean to cut you off. To get the timeframe right, now you played in the 2005 general assembly, right?
Calvin Cooke:
I think so. I think I did.
Robert Stone:
So you played in the 2005, but you didn’t play in the… Did you play-
Calvin Cooke:
Not in the sixth or the seventh, 2006 or 2007.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Yeah. Okay. And what happened? Did you go there and try to get in or how did that go?
Calvin Cooke:
I left a message and tried to talk to her son. But when he let me know he had to talk to his sister, then I knew I wouldn’t get in because his sister and brother-in-law seems to run everything that comes in and go out. So I knew I would never get a chance to talk with her and all of them.
Robert Stone:
What’s her son’s name?
Calvin Cooke:
Her son’s name is James Jr.
Robert Stone:
James Fletcher Jr.?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
That’s interesting. I thought everybody got letters. See, that’s why I’m talking to you because I was confused and I guess-
Calvin Cooke:
No. She wrote Ghent a letter. I think they wrote her or something. And from what I understand, when she wrote him back, she told them that they could go to hell with the rest of the people that was leaving the church. And they were very disappointed and whatnot. And then I understand that her son-in-law gets all the mail and screens all the mail. If there’s something that he thinks she shouldn’t get, she doesn’t get it. He controls all that. Elder Mim, he controls quite a bit. So I understand that. And then found out through some of the musicians, he’s the one who has a personal dislike against certain musicians like the Campbell Brothers, myself and Aubrey Ghent. So I guess they work that to their advantage.
Robert Stone:
Well, I know when I interviewed her back when we were working on that history book, you know, Bishop Campbell, I think at that time, she expressed… I could see that she was very conservative concerning the music at that time.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. So she’s come out even more now headstrong. I think because-
Robert Stone:
So the situation is now and the church said that the guys aren’t allowed to play out at all?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. They shouldn’t play anywhere except only in here. But here’s the thing, I guess, what we were concerned about. We have to pay to play and yet they only give you such a small amount, like $20, $15, $18, $28, depends on how you play, but it’s still a small amount compared to what they get. So the musicians have never really in the House of God, church has really been treated fairly. And now they’re treated worse by this leader.
Robert Stone:
So that’s got to hit you pretty hard after what-
Calvin Cooke:
Well it did at first and whatnot, and that they feel like God gave you the music for only this church, but yet they want the church to grow and move forward, but they’re not doing anything to… Well, let me put it like this. They never have backed their musicians up, no matter what they do. And even if they were in the church, this church was never good for standing up or backing up their musicians. They never have. Never been good. I think about the best time I had was with Bishop Jenkins. And not Bishop Jenkins, but Bishop Keith. Bishop Jenkins had started changing, but he was liberal. He didn’t bother us. The only reason he set the thing in motion about, would she be up in our dues just to play for the church because there were a lot of people bringing their kids in only when convention time come. And he was trying to cut that out. Bishop Fletcher had a dialogue with us where we all kept in touch with him when we played or where we played and we let him know what he did, he let us know that certain bishops didn’t allow it or didn’t like it. And he was trying to move slowly to try to change their minds about certain things in order for the church to grow.
Robert Stone:
You said Bishop Fletcher, did you mean Jenkins?
Calvin Cooke:
No. Bishop Elliott. I’m sorry.
Robert Stone:
Elliott. Elliott.
Calvin Cooke:
Bishop Elliott.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
And he had a hard time with that because they had some of those old ways, so much in them, but he kept in contact with us and called us and we called him and we explained everything we were doing or sent him-
Robert Stone:
All this is when you first started playing out?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. And when we first started and went out, we let him know we were doing this.
Robert Stone:
I’m curious, did anything specifically come out about following Austin City Limits? Because that was a real on national TV and of course-
Calvin Cooke:
Well, I think that was a part of it too.
Robert Stone:
That was like-
Calvin Cooke:
Everybody watched it, but after that she said those who repented and want to stay in the church after that, then we won’t look at that, but from here out. And I think that might’ve been 2006.
Robert Stone:
2006 is when she really came down?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. She started really coming down in 2006. Really, after the General Assembly in 2005. Then she really started coming down along with those who were helping her.
Robert Stone:
Now, do you know who’s playing at the General Assembly now?
Calvin Cooke:
Well, Ted is still over the music. So James Jr., James Elliott…
Robert Stone:
You mean Denard?
Calvin Cooke:
…Denard seems to stepped up in place. And Keyshawn… Well, I can’t think of Keyshawn’s last name.
Robert Stone:
The guy from Georgia?
Calvin Cooke:
From out of Ohio. From Columbus, Ohio.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Yeah. I know who you mean.
Calvin Cooke:
He seems to be stepping up as becoming one of the main musicians. And then Ted just play the rest to fill out.
Robert Stone:
How about Blue? What’s he doing, Darryl?
Calvin Cooke:
They did a little thing to Blue, got him off the music in the middle of the service. It was her son-in-law because they said he wasn’t played up or didn’t have his paper side. So they took him right off the music in the middle of the service in front of everybody. So I understand that was a huge mess there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Because I talked to his dad. You know Frank Blue?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
I talked to him, all been a couple of weeks ago, and he said that they must’ve got it straight because he said that Darryl was going up North to play somewhere.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
So they’re basically bringing in some second string guys.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s what they’re doing.
Robert Stone:
So you’re not allowed to play, are you allowed to go to church or?
Calvin Cooke:
From what I understand, at first, they said I was allowed to go. The only thing I was allowed to do was go to church and pay my money. But I play in Pontiac for my own church. And that pastor said that they have nothing written, nothing to substantiate why I can’t play. And then they said that, “The Bishop here said, if you pay or you pay your dues, you have a right to participate.” When it come to me, they changed that. They still won’t let me play, but that’s not in effect for me.
Robert Stone:
But are you playing in Pontiac?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, I play in Pontiac.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Again, what I’m hearing is it sounds so familiar like the old days.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right. And really actually to tell you the truth, they’re hypocritical.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, what goes on, what’s said at the national level might not matter that much at the local level.
Calvin Cooke:
Well, with me, they made it matter for the local level.
Robert Stone:
So you can’t-
Calvin Cooke:
Because they put it on me that I’m not allowed to play period in the organization. But some of the people are not… Well, most of the people up this way now are not agreeing with it. And Ted had me to play for his anniversary this weekend. I just played Sunday. But some people are leery because they feel like they might come down on him because Kenny Ellis was here and preached for the anniversary and we played together. Some people feel like that they might come down because they made it so personally about me playing in the church and whatnot. So it’s concerning some people of why they’re making it so personal on me.
Robert Stone:
Do you know if Ghent’s going to the House of God at all?
Calvin Cooke:
No. No. He doesn’t go here, period. He got his own church now in Knoxville, Tennessee. He’s been voted in his organization is Church of God. So he has about 400 members. So he goes there now.
Robert Stone:
Church of God. Well, it’s a mess, isn’t it?
Calvin Cooke:
It’s one of the worst mess I have ever seen in my life. It’s not only with the musician, it’s with other people that she’s been doing the same thing. And different like not letting the people get ordained and other things. So it’s really becoming… Matter of fact, this is the worst we ever seen it. The organization and some people are beginning to get really frustrated with it.
Robert Stone:
Are they losing members?
Calvin Cooke:
I don’t know how it’ll come out, but…
Robert Stone:
They must be losing members, I would think.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, quite a bit, quite a few are starting to leave and whatnot, from what I understand. First, from what I understand, was told it was about 6,000 a little more when Bishop Elliott was in. Now it dropped down to about four and it might be less than that because-
Robert Stone:
Actually the last number I heard was 8,000.
Calvin Cooke:
8,000?
Robert Stone:
That’s what Bishop Campbell was saying. They’ve never had a real clear count, you know what I mean?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah. But what I understand is now much lower than that.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, it’s in thousands.
Calvin Cooke:
Much lower. To about maybe 4,000-
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
… immediately, after she come in. So I don’t know. It’s pretty tough and now some of the people are beginning to feel like it’s best that they try to stand up in order to get this thing straight or the church’s going to be in worse shape.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. But going back to the… As you can appreciate, just the musical tradition itself is huge. One of the things I’m always up against, I got to keep things scoped down, so it doesn’t get so big I can’t handle it. And frankly, with my deal with the press, they give me a maximum page count for this book. And I’m already right there. So yeah, it’s going to be real nice. It’s the 375 pages plus some pictures and stuff. So it’s going to be-
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, that’s good.
Robert Stone:
… almost 400 pages. It’s got a lot of information and… But anyhow, one thing I got to watch out for is keeping it scoped down, but I think we’ve… Some of these things I know, but I want to hear you say it and maybe I can get a nice quote or something, but… With all this going on, it must be quite a contrast to the way you receive when you play out in the public sector.
Calvin Cooke:
When we play out in the public, they treat us as though they never heard this before in their lives. And we are treated much differently, very well received everywhere we go by everybody and all the concerts we do. And a lot of people that comes up to tell us about how encouraging and how moving and how much energy that the music is. And they appreciate us coming around and coming just to present the gospel the way we present it.
Robert Stone:
How does that make you feel? How does-
Calvin Cooke:
It makes me really feel excellent. It makes me feel good because it let me know that we’re appreciated. While we were in the church, all these years, you got people who come and tell you and let you know, but the church at large for the work we’ve done and done in the church, well, especially me. And I would say Ted, Ghent, Kenny Ellis, we’ve never received anything from acknowledgement from the church over the work we’ve done. I played there, we’re still playing in the church. So next year, really from ’58 to 2008 will be 50 years for me and never received a plaque from the organization, never received appreciation, never received anything. But we still played anyway. It doesn’t matter how we felt, but the church has never shown musicians. We watch them every Saturday and they give every other folks plaques for different things, but not one musician have they ever did anything for, or looked out or anything to recognize the work or the skill they’ve done.
Robert Stone:
That’s got to be tough.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Well, it got be quite a contrast from what you’re experiencing now, outside the church.
Calvin Cooke:
Right here now and before Bishop Brown died, his diocese, Clary Butler, invited us down and they gave me an award for outstanding honor for many years of service in the House of God Church. That was in September 2nd, 2006. Bishop Brown and his people.
Robert Stone:
And where was that?
Calvin Cooke:
That was in Indiana. Clary Butler was the one who did it with Bishop Brown approved even though he, Bishop Brown, knew that the church did what they did. He was one of the men, one of the bishops who encouraged me to stay no matter what, but to hang on him, he was the one who constantly called and talked to me just to know that-
Robert Stone:
You’re breaking up, some. You’re breaking up, some.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, can you hear me now?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. He was the one who called and constantly encouraged me and Ghent.
Robert Stone:
You’re still breaking up, but I can hear you.
Calvin Cooke:
Okay. [crosstalk 00:27:40].
Robert Stone:
Where in Indiana was that?
Calvin Cooke:
Huh?
Robert Stone:
Where in Indiana?
Calvin Cooke:
Oh God. I can’t think of the name of the part of Indiana. It’s a college town. Oh, I can’t think of-
Robert Stone:
That’s all right.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh, Lafayette mission.
Robert Stone:
Lafayette mission.
Calvin Cooke:
Lafayette mission. That’s in Lafayette, L-A-F-A-Y-
Robert Stone:
-E-T-T-E.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s in Lafayette, Indiana.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Calvin Cooke:
And Bishop Brown is one of the bishops who really stuck by us and constantly talking to us. He didn’t agree with what was done and how it was done.
Robert Stone:
Well of course, you know just from the perspective of that I’ve got a copy of that, the Decree book. You know Decree book? And it hasn’t changed since 1920.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s true. That’s true.
Robert Stone:
So basically, the Decree book has a pretty hard line on all this stuff. So you can see if Bishop Fletcher chose to take a strict reading of the Decree book, she could make that case that you can’t play anywhere even in another church really. But of course it’s like, as you said, the interpretation, well, the most liberal example was Bishop Elliott. He knew what you guys were doing and you stayed in touch with him. And of course, the Campbells, they had their own father right there who was a chief helper. But all the time, really when the Decree book was written, TV wasn’t invented. But if you could-
Calvin Cooke:
Well, it’s way outdated.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. But if you were to interpret the Decree book, you probably shouldn’t even watch TV.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s true. You shouldn’t really-
Robert Stone:
And you should not even-
Calvin Cooke:
… be doing anything. And you shouldn’t be straightening your hair or nothing.
Robert Stone:
Right. So anyhow, that stuff as well until it gets changed.
Calvin Cooke:
What happened to when she became leader, then people began to realize she didn’t agree with any of these leaders before her. And also the hard line and what she really felt, she didn’t agree with them, but she didn’t stand up for it.
Robert Stone:
Right, right. No, I can believe that because when I did that interview, I could see that she was quite conservative. Of course, I had no real idea of the politics in the church, but when I found out when she was a leader, I was not surprised to hear how conservative she was being, because that was the impression I had.
Calvin Cooke:
Right, right, right. Well, she’s always been different than any other Bishop anyway. It’s like when she came in, people knew that things would be different, but they didn’t know how severe different. And then with changes in the church and then in the world, a lot of things that you try to implement that’s from that the Decree is going to hurt because of changes that are happening now.
Robert Stone:
Right. There wasn’t even TV at-
Calvin Cooke:
No, no.
Robert Stone:
… much less internet and all that stuff.
Calvin Cooke:
No, no.
Robert Stone:
And she’s based in Philadelphia, is she?
Calvin Cooke:
Huh?
Robert Stone:
Is she based in Philadelphia?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. She pastors and Bishop of Philadelphia. So she’s over that church, been there for years.
Robert Stone:
Well, interesting times as they say.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Where it’s like interesting times. And what you’re trying to do is take something back in time that’s not working in this time. I guess they have to deal with it and-
Robert Stone:
Yeah. They got to figure it all out and-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And by the time they work it out, it’s going to do a lot of damage, which it’s doing now.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Yeah. That’s the thing. Just from my perspective is that, we’re talking, it’s not just you, it’s been for one thing, your whole 50 years as a musician and as a church member and then your family and all these other families and generations.
Calvin Cooke:
That’s true.
Robert Stone:
And you’re talking people that have worked hard to build these churches-
Calvin Cooke:
That’s true.
Robert Stone:
… and now there’s some real differences of opinion and things that are happening and what-
Calvin Cooke:
Actually, it makes me feel like, when I think about all the work that I used to help do, me, Starlin, Maynard, and Harrison, when we play at night, working in church in the daytime.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Fixing the churches-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, doing different things. And we really never got really paid like we should or paid much, but we did the work because we loved it. And then I stayed when they left and done a lot of work revivals. I didn’t make a lot of money playing for revivals, they raised offerings and whatnot, but the Bishop and them got it, but I was still low paid in, but I did it and whatnot, and never was recognized for any of the work I’d done, but I’d done it anyway. And it made me feel like everything that I’ve done was really nothing after they did what they did. And that was hard to swallow. Then to find out they used politics or certain people that was out to get me to get me out, that hurt even worse. Then to not sit down and talk with me to disrecognize me like I was never there or I was nobody, hurts doubly and then it hurt my family even worse because they didn’t have the same feeling for the church after that. So even though I’m still here by a thread, but I don’t know, I couldn’t say how much longer but I’m here.
Robert Stone:
You mean by a thread in the church?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Calvin Cooke:
I’m just really hanging here, but I have friends and church family and family, a few family that’s here and whatnot, and it’s hard to just walk away from it. And their attitude is, “We don’t care. Leave, we don’t care. We don’t want you. We don’t need you.” And I’ve never seen that within this organization before.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
It’s not a good feeling.
Robert Stone:
No. I’m sorry that we’re talking about it in a way, because I know it’s probably got you going again just talking about it.
Calvin Cooke:
No, I’ve gotten a little better. Matter of fact, gotten better and whatnot because when I realized there are other things that are happening, that’s just as worse in other people who’ve been calling and saying how they feel, then I feel good because sooner or later I know something, they’re going to have to deal with all the back fall of this.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. And you got a lot going on positive in your life.
Calvin Cooke:
Yes. Yes. I’m doing fine and traveling and enjoying what I’m doing and whatnot. And then we have shown that we appreciate it. And then I don’t know if I told you that I won the award this year from the Michigan Award for being best gospel musician this year?
Robert Stone:
Oh. From the big city thing?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. No, from the state of Michigan, they had an award show this year, like for Aretha Franklin and all the big people. And this March I won Outstanding Gospel Christian musician from the Detroit Music Award Show.
Robert Stone:
Wow.
Calvin Cooke:
So if these people recognized me and that made me feel good too, and it makes the church to look bad when I’ve been there almost 50 years, and they’ve never mentioned or awarded me. I hadn’t been out here long time playing and they recognize our music and our talent.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, even at Glenn Lee’s funeral, he got a whole lot of recognition from everybody, but the House of God.
Calvin Cooke:
Exactly. That lets you know how the House of God has been treating their musicians. And I guess even more, it’s becoming more and more widespread.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I remember Chuck telling me that he was kind of embarrassed.
Calvin Cooke:
I was. I’d feel hurt.
Robert Stone:
[crosstalk 00:37:49] at Glenn’s funeral.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. I felt bad to see all this happening and our church couldn’t present or stand up and say a word. And now it’s even worse. And this is the worst I’ve ever seen it from this particular leader. How they work it out is up to those bishops and I guess a lot of them are feeling it too, because we’re understanding, and there are some in our family and I guess they’re having a problem. It ain’t a good feeling.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. A lot of tension among the leadership.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s getting more and more and more and more now from what I understand. And then after what happened to me, a lot of them are saying, “Wait a minute, you’re not across the board. Then why did you do Calvin like this and you’re still allowing some of these same things to happen?” Then they begin to start speaking out within the family that, “Okay, this is real personal. So why is it personal here?” So I never experienced that before. But I guess these are the… as they church [inaudible 00:39:12] the last day, so we expect anything.
Robert Stone:
Well, probably, I know I got plenty to work with.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Well, at least you know the truth and how things are going.
Robert Stone:
No, I’m glad that you made it clear because I hear a little bits here and there and I try not to get into people’s businesses-
Calvin Cooke:
That’s understandable.
Robert Stone:
As I’m wrapping this up, I want to say, like I say, it’s where things are now and where they might be headed and stuff and-
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And that’s understandable.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I had a nice interview with Robert the other day.
Calvin Cooke:
Oh good. He called you?
Robert Stone:
Well, I had set it up through Michael so we got together and we talked on the phone. And it sounds like he’s fixed to make a big move on the mainstream gospel front.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. We got a show together coming up.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I saw, out of San Francisco.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. Then on cable Comcast on the 13th of October, he, Ghent, and I will have a big show coming up.
Robert Stone:
Oh really?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. It’s called Calvin Cooke and friends with special guest, Robert Randolph.
Robert Stone:
Oh really?
Calvin Cooke:
Right. If you go to my website and you see Nashville, I can’t think of the name of the show, but it’ll tell you we were in Nashville. And you look that up and it’s a big gospel thing we were together on and you could find the insert on-
Robert Stone:
Okay. Yeah. I’ll check it up.
Calvin Cooke:
… that’s coming up. If not, then I’ll call you and remind you of it. And if you can get to see it some way down there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I’m not sure. I think we get Comcast as part of our cable. We don’t get everything. I don’t know if it comes on there.
Calvin Cooke:
I’ll try to remind you and maybe you could find it somewhere.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, yeah. Please do.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. With one of your friends and I’ll let you know. And then I’m going to have him to put it on my website that is coming up and whatnot. So matter of fact, Sunday, we’re doing a big gospel show over in Windsor.
Robert Stone:
Canada?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. In Canada. So that’s coming up.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I saw that on your website.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. And all of a sudden then Grace told me today some other stuff are coming in. So it looks like we were going to be busy during the winter if everything pans out okay.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. So Lonnie is playing with you now, huh?
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Who else is in your band?
Calvin Cooke:
His son, Levy play drums. A boy named Rufus plays the organ, still Grace singing, and then me, then Aaron, my nephew here, plays bass for us. But we’re going to change the West side around because one of the guys that was singing, he left and went to Kentucky and moved there.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I was wondering who that guy was. I looked at your website and saw that he’s a young fellow.
Calvin Cooke:
Yeah. He’s a young guy. His family had a group, but they broke up now and he was singing with us. Now he moved to Louisville or somewhere down there in Kentucky. So we have to change things around.
Robert Stone:
Well, Calvin, I sure appreciate it. That-
Calvin Cooke:
Man, thanks a lot and let me know when the book is finished so I can get my copy.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, I was…