Alvin Lee Interviews
Brothers Alvin, Glenn, Keith and Derrick were the driving force of the church band at the House of God church in Perrine, about fifteen miles south of Miami, Florida, where their father, Elder Robert Lee served as pastor. Alvin played bass or guitar and Glenn picked a beautiful red Emmons double-neck pedal steel, as Keith and Derrick belted out soulful vocals. Instrumentalists Alvin and Glenn were endlessly creative in their efforts to introduce new sounds into the church repertoire, and many of the tunes, rhythms and riffs they composed have since become standards among House of God musicians. The Perrine House of God developed a national reputation for featuring some of the most exciting and innovative music among House of God churches.
Following Glenn‘s tragic death from cancer at age thirty-two in 2000, Alvin added nephews bassist Alvin “L’il Al Cordy, Jr., drummer Earl Walker, and Glenn’s protégée, young pedal-steel sensation Roosevelt “The Doctor” Collier to form the Lee Boys band. Under Alvin’s direction and management, the Lee Boys rapidly became a favorite at festivals and concerts throughout the US and Canada. Alvin is dedicated to taking the soulful and inventive music of the Lee Boys—the music he, his brothers and nephews have been playing all their lives—beyond the four walls of the church.
- RS-065 Alvin Lee Interview 7/11/06 00:00
- RS-066 Alvin Lee Interview 2/23/06 00:00
Interviewee: Alvin Lee
Interviewer: Robert Stone
Date: 7/11/06, 2/23/06
Location:
Language: English
For the archive overview:
The Robert Stone Sacred Steel Archive
This is an interview originally recorded for research purposes. It is presented here in its raw state, unedited except to remove some irrelevant sections and blank spaces. All rights to the interview are reserved by the Arhoolie Foundation. Please do not use anything from this website without permission. info@arhoolie.org
Alvin Lee Interview Transcripts:
Robert Stone:
What do you remember about him? Specifically, did you ever see him do his one-man band thing, and what kind of a rig did he have and all that?
Alvin Lee:
Oh, man. Yeah, plenty of times. This one-man band, he used to play the guitar and had the drums at the bottom, and he had this machine that he would play with, I guess something like that would keep… like a drum thing.
Robert Stone:
So it was sort of a drum machine?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, a drum machine. Then, sometimes… I’m trying to remember. He had a bass drum or something like that. Then, he would play the guitar and I mean, like a whole one-man band. My dad would always have him come to our church. He would come to our church and set up or he would go come to my dad’s barber shop sometimes and do it, and then of course sometimes come by my father’s house.
Robert Stone:
Still there?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, I’m here.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, okay. So he’d play in church. Did he actually have a real bass drum, or was it just all in the amplifier? I’m a little confused about that.
Alvin Lee:
I’m trying to remember. I just know he had… I think he did have a real bass drum that he would keep time sometimes with his foot. It was good timing. He had so many little devices. I mean, it really was the one-man band. I know his favorite song, “If it Ain’t Your Business, Leave it Alone.”
Robert Stone:
“If it Ain’t-
Alvin Lee:
“If it Ain’t Your Business, Leave it Alone. Leave it alone, leave it alone.” He used to just tell all the stories, man. You just don’t see guys like him much more now.
Robert Stone:
Right. Now, where did he live?
Alvin Lee:
Pompano. He was right out of Pompano with my mom. And actually, he was my dad’s cousin by marriage.
Robert Stone:
Oh, really?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Because Glenn was saying that he was-
Alvin Lee:
You know what? I’m just trying to remember. It’s been so long since I even talked about Uncle Blue.
Robert Stone:
Glenn said at the time, Glenn said that he was your father’s mother’s brother.
Alvin Lee:
My who? My father’s-
Robert Stone:
Mother’s brother.
Alvin Lee:
My father.
Robert Stone:
Her name was Rachel Blue. That Uncle Blue was her brother, so it would have been your grandmother’s brother on your father’s side.
Alvin Lee:
From my understanding, my father’s mother, to me he was… Man, I’m going to have to call my mom on that one.
Robert Stone:
Well, yeah, I don’t-
Alvin Lee:
You want me to get her right quick? On my cell phone, let me see-
Robert Stone:
Yeah, sure.
Alvin Lee:
Hold on. Let me see one thing, because that can just nip it right in the bud, because I think… I don’t know. Hold on one minute, Bob.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
Let me see can I get in contact with Keith. I thought he got into the family by marriage. He was actually related to some of the Blues up in Pompano, like Darryl Blue and them.
Robert Stone:
Oh, he was, huh?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, I believe that’s how he-
Robert Stone:
Well, that would make sense if he was there in Pompano and his-
Alvin Lee:
Oh yeah. All of them was there. That’s why I say my dad’s family and the Blue family, those was two big dominant families at that time. If you came in from around here and you got the Lees and the Clays or the Slaytons, two big… I’ll get it somehow.
Robert Stone:
Okay, okay, but you’ve actually straightened out something that… because Glenn, at the time, was saying that he didn’t think that that family was related to Darryl Blue and I was thinking, “How could that be if they were all in Pompano and in the church?”
Alvin Lee:
And I think he was…. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he was definitely related to the Blues. Definitely, for sure.
Robert Stone:
That’s the Blues that raised Bishop Campbell.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, that’s the Blues that raised Bishop Campbell.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, that makes sense.
Alvin Lee:
All those was ties. Who’s to say back that they all is not cousins, you know?
Robert Stone:
No, exactly.
Alvin Lee:
Back in that time, more my situations was prominent then, especially back in the earlier days.
Robert Stone:
How about that song, “If it Ain’t Your Business, Leave it Alone”?
Alvin Lee:
That’s just… I mean, that’s every song-
Robert Stone:
Is that one that he made up, you think? Was that one of his? Or do you know?
Alvin Lee:
That was one of his favorite songs that he wrote.
Robert Stone:
He wrote it? Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. And man, I just wish my mom… I just don’t even know when none of his early things used to come on. He had this accordion-type thing. He used to just play so much, man. I cannot believe you brought back up Uncle Blue. I had never talked about him in so many years.
Robert Stone:
Well, Glenn was saying that your dad had some audio tapes of him, that he-
Alvin Lee:
He might have.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
When I say Uncle Blue was… That was my dad. My dad always took care of him, would bring him in, treat him like a king. When he came, we let him do a whole show at the church, raised him an offering, feed him and… Oh, hold on, Bob.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
Hey, Mom. Hey, I didn’t mean to wake you up. Hey, Mom, right quick, do you remember Uncle Blue? Now, Mama, how Uncle Blue was related to us? Was it by marriage? Daddy’s… Grandma Rachel’s sister? Well, I know he was married to her mom, right? But that was daddy’s either aunt or cousin. So he was married to one of Grandma Rachel’s sisters? All right, and he was related to the Blues by marriage or he was related to the Blues? Ma? Right, right, right. Right. Okay, well, Mama, I’ll call you back. Okay. I will. Okay. Bye.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, he was married to one of my daddy’s sisters.
Robert Stone:
One of your father’s sisters?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Not my father, my-
Robert Stone:
Your grandmother’s?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, my father’s mother’s sisters, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay, I heard what you were saying to your mom.
Alvin Lee:
My grandma. Yeah.
Robert Stone:
You called her Grandma Rachel.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, Grandma Rachel. That’s what she was called.
Robert Stone:
Okay. Okay, that’s fine. That’s good. We got it straight.
Alvin Lee:
I’ll call you right back. All right. Okay.
Robert Stone:
So they were somehow related to the rest of the Blues there?
Alvin Lee:
Well, my mom said she… She said she wasn’t 100% sure, but she said she know his name was Blue. She thinks he was.
Robert Stone:
He’d have to be. I don’t see how he could help but…
Alvin Lee:
Well, I mean… I don’t know if we should quote it, you know.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, right. We don’t need to get into that.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, that’s kind of-
Robert Stone:
Now, your dad. Where was your dad born?
Alvin Lee:
Pompano. He graduated from Ely High School right there-
Robert Stone:
Oh, he went to Ely High School, too?
Alvin Lee:
Yep. Graduated from there.
Robert Stone:
So did he know Bishop Campbell?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Back when he was-
Alvin Lee:
They grew up together [crosstalk 00:09:28]
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Okay, I’m trying to…
Alvin Lee:
They grew up together. They used to call my daddy Rabbit. That’s why also the Campbell brothers, if you listen to them talk about my daddy, they call him Rabbit.
Robert Stone:
Why is that?
Alvin Lee:
He used to be so quick. My daddy and their daddy used to be in the watermelon field, and I guess my understanding, one time Daddy was- they was trying to get some watermelons out of this man’s field. You have to let Bishop Campbell tell the story. This man, I guess they was taking some of this watermelons, and daddy ran real quick like a rabbit. But him and daddy, yeah, they grew up together.
Robert Stone:
Okay.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. They were about the same age.
Alvin Lee:
They was the same age, and I think they went to the same school. I know my dad and Frank Blue used to be, they were running partners. My understanding, my dad and Bishop Campbell and them, they used to go call to a lot of the assemblies and stuff. Just like what Keith used to do, my daddy used to do, shouting all over the floor. They said he couldn’t sit my daddy down. He used to lead through songs and stuff.
Robert Stone:
Devotion leader.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. It’s funny that now you think about, my dad had a band, too, just like me, just like us. He had his own group.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. My dad used to have a group, they used to practice at the barber shop. I remember he had a bass player, another guitar player.
Robert Stone:
Now, did he just play Hawaiian or did he play guitar?
Alvin Lee:
My dad played a little guitar, too. My dad, in his closet, I’ll never forget when I was a little boy, he had just got a guitar for Glenn. He had a bass guitar in his closet, and I’ll never forget, that’s the first time I even saw a bass, kind of a little boy. He told me to get that and start practicing on that.
Robert Stone:
Now, where was his barber shop? Was it right in Richmond Heights?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, right in Richmond Heights. Right across from Bethel. Well, now they don’t support it and stuff like that, now.
Robert Stone:
I think there’s something in… it was either when I was talking to you or Glenn, that he also, for awhile, he had a lawn mowing business with Marshall Harrison?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, with Marshall Harrison and my dad’s, that’s one of the many businesses my dad had when he first started. He used to tell us about how he used to work. My dad used to work so hard, man. He was one of the hardest-working men. He did that, and let me see, what else? Him and L.R. Harrison was a big entity to get my dad to start into the business, because L.R. Harrison used to have his own lawn business and started my dad, and from there, my dad got his own. And from the lawn business, he started his dump truck business and from there it just went on and on.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, the fill business was-
Alvin Lee:
Oh, the fill business was-
Robert Stone:
… a big thing back then.
Alvin Lee:
Man. I kept it going as long as I could, but the thing is, I’ll never forget… I took after my daddy with just about everything. I’ll never forget when I was in college and then when I first got married, and after I was working for UPS. I was young, because I got married at 20, my first marriage, and I’ll never forget my dad said, “Al, please. Let me show you. I’m going to get you started in your own business.” He bought me a dump truck, brought me home, taught me how to use it, and he helped me start my business. I started doing the same thing he did. I did the hauling dirt and selling fill. He taught me everything. Me and him actually started going into business for a little while. When he got a little older, he couldn’t do as much, so-
Robert Stone:
So you guys would, as I understand it, because I lived down there, somebody would get a pool dug and they would pay you haul off.
Alvin Lee:
Right. We would actually work for the excavating company.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
And they commission the company to actually dig up the pool.
Robert Stone:
They pay you to haul the dirt off.
Alvin Lee:
Well, actually, see, my dad would fill-
Robert Stone:
Or would you get it for free?
Alvin Lee:
It was two jobs. We would actually work for the excavating company hauling the dirt off, but my dad would become a fill broker and go out and sell that fill to contractors, so that was two separate things.
Robert Stone:
Right. That’s what I was getting at.
Alvin Lee:
Oh. Yeah, yeah.
Robert Stone:
You’d either get fill for free or they’d pay you to haul it off.
Alvin Lee:
Say it again.
Robert Stone:
Would they pay you to haul the fill away or would you have to buy it?
Alvin Lee:
Well, that’s the part of the excavating company. Excavating is to come dig it up and take it away. That means within the excavating company, which is… he worked so many years for R&D Excavating. After that, he would go out in turn and go to contractors that wanted fill and sell it.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, well, the point I’m making it was it was a smart thing, because you were getting paid for hauling off the fill and then you were getting paid for selling the fill.
Alvin Lee:
Oh yeah. Right.
Robert Stone:
So it was a good thing.
Alvin Lee:
Oh, it was a great thing. Yeah. That’s what I’m telling you. My dad, he used to just show me… because at the time, it was so big and prominent. It wasn’t all build up estimate. When I came into it, it was kind of… but by the time my dad died and I tried to do it still, Miami was built up so big. There was no place to take-
Robert Stone:
Right. Right, right. But I remember back in the… of course I remember as far back as ’50s around Cutler Ridge and all that, and-
Alvin Lee:
They didn’t all have of them.
Robert Stone:
… around Palmetto High, man. They were building up swimming pools. A lot of swimming pools.
Alvin Lee:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Whatever, yeah. And they’d have to fill in for loads and lots and whatever.
Alvin Lee:
Right, right. And they didn’t have as many codes and stuff that they got now.
Robert Stone:
Right, right.
Alvin Lee:
So many-
Robert Stone:
Simpler time.
Alvin Lee:
Right, exactly.
Robert Stone:
Well, okay. Well, look, I got to get back to this. That was what I kind of wanted to talk about next.
Alvin Lee:
Okay.
Robert Stone:
So you’ve been all right, huh?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, I’ve been pretty good.
Robert Stone:
You home for a few days?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, yeah. We’ll be home. Actually, next Friday we go out. We’re going to Atlanta. We’re doing a venue there. Actually, we’re supposed to be on the Good Morning Atlanta show.
Robert Stone:
Oh really?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, doing a venue in Knoxville, then we’re going to Asheville and we’ve got an in-store in Asheville. Then, that Saturday we’re going to Charlotte. Then we’ll be back home, then we’ll be back out. That next week is when we’re going to end up meeting up with the Campbell Brothers at the Floyd Festival.
Robert Stone:
Oh, okay.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. This is kind of the first time somebody having two real Sacred Steel acts.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, yeah.
Alvin Lee:
Just booked them at the same time.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, yeah. That’s great.
Alvin Lee:
It’s going to be fun. We’re going to try to do some collaboration. I talked with Chuck, we’re going to hope and try to do some switching and bringing Chuck on when we get on, just kind of have fun, man.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Oh, they’ll eat that up. Everybody will like that. Well, that’s great. I haven’t talked to Chuck in awhile. They went overseas for awhile, didn’t they? Or they might be there now.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, matter of fact, I just talked with Chuck and they was getting ready to go to Seattle. He was still talking about some the issues dealing with Calvin.
Robert Stone:
Oh, Calvin?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, just going through all that, some of the mess. But he was just kind of telling me some inside stuff, how it’s going to be even harder with Calvin because I guess sometimes a lot of people have problems with Grace, with Calvin’s wife.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
It’s always hard, man, when you have your wife as your partner.
Robert Stone:
I know.
Alvin Lee:
I told you what Chuck was saying. I said, “Well, you right,” because I said I thank God for my situation now, because I know it would have been like that if I would have been with my first wife. Man, it’s no way I could have did none of this stuff. You just got to have that person that kind of understand and believe and that supports you. Chuck was saying sometimes he don’t like to say stuff because sometimes when they be honest, they always seem like they get somebody taking what they say wrong.
Robert Stone:
Right. Right.
Alvin Lee:
But I know. But the thing is, still-
Robert Stone:
How many people you think you got in there on a regular basis?
Alvin Lee:
You mean now?
Robert Stone:
No, at your peak.
Alvin Lee:
Man, on a regular Sunday, we was packed out. To me, it would be at least two, three hundred people in between. Packed. Because see, the music attracts so many people.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
That’s what I was telling one of these guys during the interview, we were just fortunately that my dad was a musician to begin with. He had boys that was taught musicians.
Robert Stone:
Right, so-
Alvin Lee:
He would let us just go, let us explore. We would jam for an hour. We would jam for 45 minutes. You can’t get that type of setting no more now to begin with.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
My dad, he wanted us to be on top. My dad was a proud father. He wanted his boys to be on the state. He wanted us to be on the national level. Then, when we got there, he wanted to keep us on top. The thing is, is just that… But, in this church, man, you’re still only as big as your local church will let you be. And we have to spend everything, all your tithe… that’s the one wrong entity to me of this church that I grew up and I love, is common sense will tell you if you just take everything out of your storefront. If I build up a membership of 200 people and I want to have a whole, big ministry going, if they tithe, meaning I ask them to give 10%, it needs to stay there so they can see the fruit of that.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
Not go to headquarters. They tried to make us put on programs and you’re dealing with low-income people. Most of our church is… we have some middle class, but there’s not a whole fleet of rich people or doctors or lawyers or celebrity people.
Robert Stone:
People that are trying real hard. [crosstalk 00:21:40]
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why people like my mom and people li.ke my auntie, L.R. Harrison, they suffer now. My dad gave everything he had for the church. L.R. Harrison, their mortgage off their houses and all this stuff. These are guys that was just blue-collar labor worker guys, you know what I’m saying?
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
And they worked hard, they made a good living for their family, but they sacrificed everything. Then, when they get old, there’s nothing set up for them. The wives are just left right there to wither away.
Robert Stone:
Right. I got Henry Nelson’s wife sent me a photo. It didn’t come for awhile, and I thought maybe it got lost in the mail so I called her. She says, “No, I’m just waiting until I get my check so I can pay for the postage.”
Alvin Lee:
Wow.
Robert Stone:
Oh, man. It’s like $1.50 postage.
Alvin Lee:
When you say stuff like that, if you look at the old documentary tapes of the old Blues guys, the original ones that brought all this sound and everybody has forgotten about them. It’s taken Blues society, white guys that’s in the age of 55 that love to go back and get this tradition, take their personal money. That saddens my heart, you know?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
But that’s why I say this whole ministry thing, like I said, which I do love and it’s hard to get away from, it’s just set up. I think in my heart, Mother Tate, if she was still alive, if it would have grown to what it was now, she would have set up things much different so everybody could take care of themselves and still have a fellowship. But you look at these big ministers like T.D. Jakes and they got two churches in one location. That’s okay, but when you try to get a thousand churches-
Robert Stone:
Yeah, like 200 churches. 200.
Alvin Lee:
200 churches, whatever, how many, and then they’re all small membership, you know?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
It’s a tradition.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, look, I got to get back to [crosstalk 00:24:29] so-
Alvin Lee:
All righty.
Robert Stone:
It’s always good to talk to you, Alvin, and-
Alvin Lee:
Okay, Bob. Well, we’ll keep in touch, man.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, and-
Alvin Lee:
Hopefully we’ll be… [Tape stops].
Robert Stone:
They got a lap steel out.
Alvin Lee:
Huh?
Robert Stone:
They got a lap steel out. Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, but I’m saying this is a new prototype. They’re getting ready to do an 8-string-
Robert Stone:
Oh, really?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, yeah. Matter of fact, they already sent out a beautiful, white, six-string one. Oh my God, if you see this, it’s so beautiful. They sent me an acoustic guitar. We’re trying to get some sponsorships through Fender. We took them the old Fender 8-string, the original one we got.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
And they’re going to try to do a prototype.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Alvin Lee:
Man, this is a big deal.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, well, seeing’s believing.
Alvin Lee:
Huh?
Robert Stone:
Seeing’s believing.
Alvin Lee:
No, this is already happening. We already met with-
Robert Stone:
The lap steel I’ve seen that they’ve got for sale… they’ve got a new one for sale, and nobody likes it.
Alvin Lee:
Right. But this one, everybody-
Robert Stone:
They make the one with the two pickups, you know?
Alvin Lee:
Right, right. Right. That’s what I’m saying, but this is what I’m saying. This is going to be a sacred steel prototype one.
Robert Stone:
That’d be great.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah this is- But, anyway, the guy… I already did the interview. It’s a lot of stuff. I ain’t going to let all the stuff out the bag.
Robert Stone:
Right. I know, you can’t.
Alvin Lee:
Like you said, it’s better seeing than just hearing. But reason I was telling you is because they want to get a good picture of me and Velt with the two guitars that they sent us. It would have been good if you could have had those credits.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, man.
Alvin Lee:
We just want to get a picture tooken with Velt with that guitar and a picture with-
Robert Stone:
That’s what I was doing Saturday. Matter of fact, I was at Disney. I was at Disney.
Alvin Lee:
This past Saturday?
Robert Stone:
Exit 68.
Alvin Lee:
I was home, too, all day Saturday.
Robert Stone:
Well, I had been to Miami. I left my car at the Orlando airport and I flew to Miami Friday morning, and then I flew back Saturday morning, got in at 9:00. If you guys would have been there, I could have slipped over there, because-
Alvin Lee:
Right. Just like what we were talking about.
Robert Stone:
… it was kind of loose as far as what I had to do there at the hula thing.
Alvin Lee:
Wow.
Robert Stone:
But I was actually off exit 68 on I-4, right by-
Alvin Lee:
What. Well, I mean-
Robert Stone:
But we didn’t know, and I had a full plate. I had a big photo shoot the next day in Deltona.
Alvin Lee:
Right. But, well anyway, I just thought I’d kind of-
Robert Stone:
No, that’s- [Tape stops].
Robert Stone:
Well, actually, this probably won’t take long. Most of this stuff you’ve already told me before, but I just want to get it so I can do some quotes and stuff.
Alvin Lee:
Ain’t going to be the same way.
Robert Stone:
No. No, but it’d be good. First, I just want to get straight Marshall Harrison, he lived in Richmond Heights, right?
Alvin Lee:
Right, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Basically, always.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Well originally there was Ocala. That’s where my mom and them lived, in Ocala. But basically, you could say Richmond Heights, or…
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
I mean, that I know.
Robert Stone:
Right. Back when Calvin was coming down and all that.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
Okay. Now the other thing is if you can just talk about Calvin’s playing and some of the things you’ve told me before about-
Alvin Lee:
Oh, okay. Yeah, man. Calvin really, to me, has really been one of the biggest influences on the different known jams throughout the House of God. I think Calvin still has some of the most known praise jams throughout, that we all use. All of the Sacred Steel people use in our playing today. And back in the high ’80s, all of the ’90s and the beginning of 2000, Calvin jams really stood out. After the Nelson type jam… it didn’t die away, but it wasn’t as popular. Calvin and Ted and both Calvin and Ted had good jams, but think Calvin just came out with a lot of the most identified jams throughout, to keep demand. That everybody would get and go and take back home, you know?
Robert Stone:
I mean, would you look forward to going up there every year and hearing some of his stuff.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I mean, we would look forward to just seeing what he had new. Really seeing what the top dogs had new and to show what we had at a certain time. But Calvin would always come out with a jam. Sometimes it was just on the spur of the moment. We’ll come up with a hook and he would just do something and it would really catch.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
Both him and Ted had those brakes. They would do the brakes. See that’s what up North, like the Northern guys, Detroit and Chicago, Ohio, they were known for a lot of their breaks, but the East coast, because we were so influenced by Nelson, we had the straight hard drive.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
That straight pump drive going. And it really wasn’t until, Glenn got influenced by Chuckie and then learning, we’d listened to Calvin and Ted that we started implementing a lot of the breaks down on [crosstalk 00:03:12].
Robert Stone:
What do you mean by breaks?
Alvin Lee:
You know, like in the middle of a jam, Calvin, you know they’ll do… (Singing). Or they’ll do, (Singing). Break. (Singing). See, Ted did all those breaks in jams like that.
Robert Stone:
So you mean a stop time-
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, like a stop time.
Robert Stone:
…where the band would stop and then he-
Alvin Lee:
Right. The band would stop there, and… The steel will lead out and then the band would stop behind it.
Robert Stone:
Oh.
Alvin Lee:
Like, (singing). Then the band was stopped and it would just stop on a one beat, stop on a two-beat, stop on a three-beat. You’ll keep going until you go back into the jam.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Alvin Lee:
You know, the Northern guys was known for all of that. But down the East coast, I mean, especially all growing up. It was all Nelson. He had that straight just continuous thing.
Robert Stone:
Just one chord.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Just one and this-
Robert Stone:
You were playing bass most of the time?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I was always playing the bass. I was like Nelson, basically. I didn’t play with Calvin and Ted. I really was known for my bass playing.
Robert Stone:
And when were you playing bass?
Alvin Lee:
All early ’80s, all ’90s, really all ’90s until Alvin got up to par. Maybe say ’96, ’97 I started, planned to lead with Glenn and some with Calvin and them. But I still would play bass. I played bass all the way up to the end, but I would want to, like as though I was passing the torch to little Alvin.
Robert Stone:
Little Alvin.
Alvin Lee:
I would let him play on our night, and I played with Ted or Calvin on Saturday and Sunday. At one point, me and Rico became like the two top bassists. So we always played on Saturday and Sundays, but would swap. That’s Rico Beard. Then I started letting little Alvin. He started getting better. And then he became, I told Ted, we need to bring him on in as a national. He was up to that point. So Ted, he came in. Plus he was playing with me and Cliff, so we had already trained him…
Robert Stone:
Right, right.
Alvin Lee:
… to do them good.
Robert Stone:
Good. Yeah. I remember when I came in ’96, you were playing bass at the General Assembly.
Alvin Lee:
Right. Yeah. And I still played bass on the other days. I did- like that particular diocese didn’t have a main bass player. So I would play bass with the other guys: Calvin, Ted, Chuck.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. But Calvin really stands out in your mind as the guy.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I mean, Calvin really is, as far as the overall House of God jams, and I mean, because you know, all those known breaks like that Robert Randolph do, and we do, not as much Chuck now, but you know, some things. But I mean, those known breaks… all those was man, Calvin things that he did, and some Ted too.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Alvin Lee:
But I mean, Calvin was to me, just the more identifiable, because if you do those breaks, like when we do them people know that, “Oh, that’s House of God. That’s Keith Dominion.” So that’s known jams. Because a lot of the jams that Calvin did when he made up, I was playing the bass. So I remember, you know what I’m saying? And he might’ve been doing it at his local.
Robert Stone:
Oh right.
Alvin Lee:
It’s not until you get to the national and you create a big jam that everybody go back home and spread it out. So that’s kind of when it’s known.
Robert Stone:
Right. Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
And the Campbell brothers came up with a lot of hits too, but it’s just that Calvin made the ones that stand out, that’s still going on now.
Robert Stone:
Right. Right.
Alvin Lee:
You know?
Robert Stone:
No, that’s okay. That’s, that’s good. I think we got enough of that. Then another thing I wanted to talk about was when your dad would take you down to see and hear Treadway. Stuff you told me before and how you called it the church of the boogie-woogie and all that.
Alvin Lee:
Right.
Robert Stone:
And then also the… one thing I’m trying to bring out in a book is a contrast of the music and the dance in the Keith Dominion and the Jewell Dominion.
Alvin Lee:
Oh, right.
Robert Stone:
So if you could just talk about that.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I mean, when we were younger boys, every time my uncle… it was really Lorenzo Harrison. Every time they would come down to Deerfield for the big Jewell state assembly here, my uncle Lorenzo would always come over to our house, and he would always bring his guitar and play with my dad. Be trying to show my dad something, or just be playing. I’ll never forget when he sat me and Glenn down and showed us a lot of stuff and told us how, when he plays steel you don’t really need a bass player, because the steel could run a baseline.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
Just a lot of stuff like that. So my dad would take us to their assemblies. And at that time, that’s when Sonny was playing with him. Treadway.
Robert Stone:
Sonny was playing guitar?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. He’d be playing guitar. And I think it was the… I forget the another main guitarist, I forgot his name, but anyway, you know, and they would be playing the slow boogie-woogie or ragtime type of or juke box type of sound. And the people would be dancing accordingly. I remember one time seeing this guy, he was actually doing a boogie-woogie dance and he would get his handkerchief, flipped the handkerchief from out of his pocket and do a turn around and catch it as he ran out of church service. And to me, as a young kid, that was like, “Wow, I can’t believe this.” You’re eight or nine or whatever age I was, and just looking at this, it’s like, “Wow, they doing this in church,” you know?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
But I think it’s just the style of the music.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, apparently. Apparently that whole… from what I’m gathering, it seems like Nettie Mae had a lot to do with that.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Because you know, she was a dancer.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And you talk to her and she’ll go on and on about how the people in the Jewell Dominion, they dance. And then people in the Keith dominion or some people just jump up, jump around, jump up and down, but they’re really dancing.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I mean, look. I got so many tapes. If you see these guys, when I say Glenn, I mean, because in all of the ’90s, when Bishop Manning took over, that’s when Glenn became her musician too. And he would go and he’d video everything. And by when I tell you the amazing way that these guys shout with their foot movement. I mean, it’s just kind of unprepared. You would think they go to the school for Jewell dancers. Because it’s like, “Man, how they do that dance?” All of a sudden, Glenn would always try to implement this in the House in the Keith, and unless you knew about the Jewell, you wouldn’t understand when we slow and you get into, you know, Glenn Would come out in the middle of the floor. He would do all these little slow… And Glenn had the dance down, but it just the House of God, we would double the time. And usually the people are dancing at that double time.
Robert Stone:
All right.
Alvin Lee:
So sometimes when they try to slow it down, they can’t do it because of their- you know?
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
It’s like they just-
Robert Stone:
No, it doesn’t work, doesn’t work.
Alvin Lee:
It doesn’t work. Some of them dance fast while… but I think really we trained the Perrine people because a lot of us were either family members or we knew how to dance, and we were a big part of the Jewell tradition anyway.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
It helped us a little bit, you know?
Robert Stone:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Alvin Lee:
I’l never forget, in the ’90s when me and Glenn really became the national musicians, it was such a big fear, but Glenn, we always wanted to bust Jewell in the middle of the national. But we knew Ted would… He was just like, “No, no!” So we was always sneaking it in, but Ted would always want us to keep to the tradition.
Robert Stone:
So you try and sneak some of that in.
Alvin Lee:
We would try to sneak it in. I mean, me and Glenn- And then it wasn’t until Bishop Manning and Bishop Elliott got together and just broke all those ties, and Bishop Elliott invited Bishop Manning over. Then we just started playing it all the way. And then some of their dancers came. Because I mean, you could tell it was like- some of the… “Yeah, we feel this.” It’s like, this is our family too. You can kind of- It’s just like cousins you never seen.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
Or something like that. That whole essence, you know? But I mean, they really, to be honest with my way of playing, my music, Jewell had a real big influence on me with my chord progression. And mainly that comes from, with me it was with Ronnie Mozee and his brother, Robert.
Robert Stone:
Robert Postelle.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Those two guys, man. And I always would say, man, the Jewell have the baddest guitars, but the Keith have the baddest steels. To me that’s how I would say it. I mean, we’re more schooled I’ll say with the- not that we’re better with the steel, but we’re more technical, you know, because we use the pedals, but with their guitar players? Man, far hands down, man. Those guys, whoo! They’re just rough, man.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, just the fact that Jay Caver has played so much with the Keith Dominion guys.
Alvin Lee:
Right. Yeah. It came fast and moved over, you know, back and forth.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Actually, I’m supposed to be able to talk to… Supposed to interview Ronnie Mozee. We’ll see.
Alvin Lee:
Wow. Good luck, man.
Robert Stone:
Well, Chuck talked to him just recently. He was over at his house. He had lent him a pedal steel and he went back and got that. And when he talked to him, he told him that I wanted to interview him and asked if that’d be okay.
Alvin Lee:
I hope he-
Robert Stone:
So he got his phone numbers and I’ve been leaving him. I left him a message. So we’ll see.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, I understand he just had a baby, I believe.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. You’re right. Chuck said they just had another baby. I think he’s got six kids now or something.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. He’s up there. I just talked with Gammy, not too long ago.
Robert Stone:
You did?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. Gammy, he’s… I tell you, man. When I say… I mean, I just don’t know. I just can’t explain, that talent is not that it’s being wasted, but not used. And to me Gammy and Ronnie-
Robert Stone:
Do you-
Alvin Lee:
Gammy, Ronnie and Robert are the best [inaudible 00:15:15] guitar players that… and you let Robert and Gammy say, Ronnie is the master.
Robert Stone:
About right.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. And he is. I mean, I got tapes of him, but my preference has always been Robert, you know.
Robert Stone:
Really?
Alvin Lee:
Oh man. Glenn, see you got to understand, man. It’s like Glenn was giving me the best of both worlds, you know. He was videotaping. I mean, I got tapes of Robert just playing and they had a particular style and I really got transfused to that style, especially… And Robert don’t even know. I mean, he know we met and we know each other, but you know, not how big of influence he has been on me. And that’s even with what the Lee Boys are doing now. Because it’s what I hear. And it’s just a lot of his chord progressions that me and Glenn used to do. I mean, look at the Joyful Sounds, you know what I’m saying? Actually, Joyful Sounds was a beginning riff that I got from Gammy and, you the other part was, one of Jewell’s hardest jams, that second half that Ronnie and them did. And they’re a big influence, you know. But it’s just so much a talent man. Both sides. I just think the steel is a lot more dominant with the Keith than… the way we are with the steels is the way those guys are with the guitar.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well, of course everybody’s different, but they do, most of those guys, sound very similar to one another.
Alvin Lee:
Oh, yeah.
Robert Stone:
That’s my take on it. And in other words, there’s a lot more invention in the Keith Dominion.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I mean, those guys. Really all they do is I-IV-V. You know, they really don’t go past on the I, then the IV, then the V. Boogie-woogie, regular, standard boogie-woogie thing that they do. And I just think it’s just because they’re really hard on tradition. And my understanding now, like the new chief they have now, is going back to more them churching. You know what I mean? You know, like doing a lot of praise rather than like when my cousin Naomi…
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
… was in office, she tried to bring in the worship, praise and worship.
Robert Stone:
Right. The more modern thing.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. But now they’re going back to what… And I just think these types of churches, that’s how they are. Not these churches, our churches. Just the way our tradition is, you know?
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
And that’s why I say I’m just happy that people like you have discovered the music because it was such a big tradition and it affects us all. It’s like a way of life, man. That’s what I tell everybody, man. No matter where I go, I play. We could be in a band, playing band stuff, but we still think about our style of music, you know?
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
So…
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Well I was down at that state assembly they had down there or whatever they called it in…
Alvin Lee:
In the Jewell.
Robert Stone:
In Deerfield at Sonny’s. About a month ago.
Alvin Lee:
Right.
Robert Stone:
And yeah, it was wasn’t the same. I’d been there before, when Bishop Manning was there.
Alvin Lee:
Right.
Robert Stone:
Of course, she used to lead so many songs.
Alvin Lee:
Right, right.
Robert Stone:
Singing herself, and this one doesn’t, you know?
Alvin Lee:
Right, right.
Robert Stone:
So, I mean, it was a lot of… The steel was playing a lot.
Alvin Lee:
Wow.
Robert Stone:
Sonny really got going. I mean, he pulled out stuff I had never heard.
Alvin Lee:
If you listened to my uncle Lorenzo, I got a cassette tape. I got tapes of him. He really conducted the service. With that steel. It’s funny Bob, because the people… That’s the difference with the Keith Dominion. If someone was after the preacher, the music after the preacher with Jewell, sometimes he would wait two or three minutes. So he gets ready, and then he would bust out something real slow. That’s the difference. He really… and I know Ronnie remembers him real, the closest.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
But it’s just, you have to really see it to understand, man. Or hear it. You’re like, “Well, the music’s supposed to start playing now.” Then all of a sudden he’d take his time to come in. You know. With House of God Keith Dominion, we’re not disciplined like that. Somebody has to start shouting or some singing or something.
Robert Stone:
Right. So he really ran it, in the service.
Alvin Lee:
He ran it and he was keeping, he would keep, he would keep it going for 20 minutes. Then after he finished that, if he felt like it, he would go into another little jam. And what I noticed about him, he would run the bass line. His first start- That’s why he always had a good lead player, I guess like Ronnie who played with him, he would run the bass line and the lead player would set that pocket. Then he’ll just go off into a whole, this awesome thing. But yeah, he ran it, man.
Robert Stone:
Now you were, you started going down there when you were how old do you think?
Alvin Lee:
I just, I remember going in there when we young, I mean, I just can’t remember.
Robert Stone:
10 years old, something like that?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, something like that, probably.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. But he was always coming. I’m quite sure before I was even born, they were coming.
Robert Stone:
Right, right. And when were you born by the way?
Alvin Lee:
Born in ’66.
Robert Stone:
Born in ’66?
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
Okay. I just got to keep things straight in terms of time. So, tell me, let’s just go back to your general impression when your dad would take you over there to Sonny’s church.
Alvin Lee:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Robert Stone:
I mean…
Alvin Lee:
I mean, for what I can remember, it’s just so much dancing. I remember my Uncle Lorenzo playing, and I remember being scared of Bishop Jewell, because she’s so big. As a little kid, man, she was oh, what six something, man. And I remember nothing would happen to until she walked in. They would be up there. Church supposed to start at 7:30. She don’t get in til 8:30, it hadn’t started.
Robert Stone:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Wow.
Alvin Lee:
Once she get in then they all stand up and she prayed and they would start then.
Robert Stone:
But it’s interesting that she was this big, powerful figure. But then you’re saying at the same time, Lorenzo Harrison-
Alvin Lee:
Because that was my- That was…
Robert Stone:
He was her son-in-law.
Alvin Lee:
He was her son like, you know?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
You know.
Robert Stone:
But at the same time he had a lot of power in terms of it.
Alvin Lee:
Oh he was- I mean, in a sense it’s like… It’s not on the same scale, but it’s like my daddy and Glenn. You know, my daddy was the pastor but when Glenn came in far as the music, whatever Glenn did, my daddy would look at Glenn. Even my dad told Glenn to stop sometimes, if he felt… And I’m just using that pair up.
Robert Stone:
No, no, no.
Alvin Lee:
It could be the same thing with Chuckie and his dad.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
But I mean, Harrison was so powerful because he kind of created the style of music.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
It’s the same sense to me, it’s the same sense. I compare Harrison with Henry on our side. And reason I do Henry, because you had a lot of other players that may even have been before, even ones that was… you know. But it’s the ones that was the biggest influence. The ones that went to all the assemblies. And so you got to understand back in the day, even jumping on Keith Dominion, Nelson daddy’s, and his uncles was the big dogs, we talking about bishops, you know?
Robert Stone:
Right. No, I understand that.
Alvin Lee:
So I’m just saying, jumping back on the other side, it’s just that Lorenzo, because Jewell took him in.
Robert Stone:
Right. I mean, and he was even bigger because… Here’s my perception: I agree with totally what you say about Henry Nelson, because his dad had most of Florida and he had South Carolina, which that’s- you put those two states together and that’s half of all the churches.
Alvin Lee:
Well, it’s just that those other diocese was so small that they did exist, but it’s like, what did they represent? You know what I’m saying?
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
It wasn’t until like, I guess ’90s or late that their actually membership started growing. You go up North or whatever, you got to think about even Campbell and them. He was originally raised East coast. This is way back.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
So that’s why I was saying that, in the sense that-
Robert Stone:
Right. I understand.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Right. But then Harrison, I mean, he went- he had the whole country.
Alvin Lee:
The whole shebang.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, because he was with the Bishop and he played at all those state assemblies…
Alvin Lee:
Right. Exactly.
Robert Stone:
… and national assemblies. And so, what he played, that went. That was it.
Alvin Lee:
That was it. That’s what… yeah.
Robert Stone:
That was the Word. That was the law of the land.
Alvin Lee:
You’re absolutely right.
Robert Stone:
It wasn’t… And to this day, those guys. It’s pretty amazing to me that they kind of all- They’re trying- They sound so similar and they all play no pedals.
Alvin Lee:
Yes.
Robert Stone:
Most of-
Alvin Lee:
The wah. They-
Robert Stone:
The wah, they use the wah. And they get that sound, they play those boogie woogies.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah.
Robert Stone:
And now there’s, like this guy in Tupelo, he’s a little different because he has a 10 string pedal steel with no pedals. Took the pedals off. But he only puts six strings on it. So he uses a bass player. He doesn’t play the bass lines, like…
Alvin Lee:
Oh, he does. Right.
Robert Stone:
… because he doesn’t have the low strings. But still it’s that E tuning, you know.
Alvin Lee:
You got the same effect, you know.
Robert Stone:
Yeah right. And they used that wah pedal. It’s actually a father and a son. And then this time the son was playing the steel last time I was there it was the father.
Alvin Lee:
It was the father.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. That’s-
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. I mean, like I said. Those experiences with me going down there was, I think it was real. It was awesome just for us to get that. And I remember my daddy having tapes and tapes of Uncle Lorenzo because he would tape so much his stuff.
Robert Stone:
Right.
Alvin Lee:
And so…
Robert Stone:
You know, I would, is there any way you could loan to me or let me look at some of those tapes from the Jewell Dominion. Videotapes. Because I want to write something about the way they dance, you know?
Alvin Lee:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Oh, man. Yeah, they dance, man. Whoo!
Robert Stone:
Yeah. How can we do that? Could you send me some and I just borrow them and send them back or how, what can we do?
Alvin Lee:
Well, I probably would. I mean, I probably could just send you some and let you just…
Robert Stone:
Yeah. I mean you can. Of course you can trust me totally. I’ll give them back.
Alvin Lee:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Robert Stone:
Well, is there anything you can send me before you leave town? Serious, man. If you could send me-
Alvin Lee:
I know. I probably wouldn’t… Let me see. I don’t know. What time is it? I probably could send you something.
Robert Stone:
Yeah. Here’s basically what I’m looking for. I want a video that shows some of the dancing, the Jewell Dominion dancing really good. So I can just write about it. I can describe it if I can see it. And I can almost describe it from memory, but I really need to see it. You know?
Alvin Lee:
Right, right.
Robert Stone:
Watch it and sit down for a few minutes and then describe it, and compare it to the way the Keith Dominion is, you know?
Alvin Lee:
Right, right.
Robert Stone:
Because that’s one of the… the music is different and the dance follows the music.
Alvin Lee:
It does.
Robert Stone:
So you put the two together and when you walk in the church, it’s a big difference what you see and hear in the Jewell Dominion, and what you see and hear in the Keith Dominion.
Alvin Lee:
Exactly.
Robert Stone:
It’s a big difference. And I need to get that across to the reader, you know? Because…
Alvin Lee:
Right, right. Well, I’m not going to make no promises about today, Bob, because-
Robert Stone:
Yeah. But if there was anything, if you could just throw something in the mail, man. That’d be so good.
Alvin Lee:
Yeah. But, because I would need to go through what I need to send.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, right.
Alvin Lee:
It’s not like I just have it right there, I got to look at it and-
Robert Stone:
Right, I understand.
Alvin Lee:
Especially the one that I would want to send you.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
The one I probably want to send you is a compilation that we put together with nothing but dancing. I mean, it’s maybe three hours. This would be the perfect one.
Robert Stone:
Yeah, sure.
Alvin Lee:
But I would need to find it, and then… The earliest I’d probably be able to do it will be Monday or Tuesday.
Robert Stone:
That’d be good. That’d be good too.
Alvin Lee:
So…
Robert Stone:
You can just put it in a priority mail thing or something, you know.
Alvin Lee:
Right.
Robert Stone:
I really appreciate it. Alvin. That’d be a big, big help to me.
Alvin Lee:
Right. Right.
Robert Stone:
Yeah.
Alvin Lee:
But…
Robert Stone:
Well, okay. This tape’s about… let me see if I got, let me just pause this.